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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #51 of 280: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:10
permalink #51 of 280: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:10
Does anyone have observations of a business model for a healthy news organization that seems plausible for the current and near future? How much money does it take to fund a healthy (local?) news organization, and what sources of income are realistic?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #52 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:12
permalink #52 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:12
THank you for <49>, John.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #53 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:23
permalink #53 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:23
Tex, as fast as copy editors worked, we were simply a structural impediment to the immediacy required by online news and social media. The NYT fired a ton of theirs, and their headlines show the resulting loss of artistry.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #54 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:41
permalink #54 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:41
It does indeed show. I once suggested to the Chronicle that they offer fact-checking as a paid-for service to bloggers and other entities that routinely make less-than-accurate pronouncements. I think instead they downsized. Again, what is it that a newsroom does that can be protected? One more item I could use less of is "narrative journalism" which is different from the classic who-what-where-when-how style of old. Instead it starts with a story about some person and what they are going through as a way to illustrate the central point of the story, which may or may not be found some paragraphs later. And I suspect that the 'Net is responsible because ad-driven sites need not just page views, but scrolling so all of the ads may be seen. Thus, "stickiness" seems to be where you string the reader out as much as possible. That's fine for "human interest" stories, but not in the A section. When we did SF Gate in the 90s, we assumed people were busy and might not even have enough time to read a whole story, esp back then when page loading was often slower. So, we made sure our headlines gave away the gist of what the story was about. And we made the headlines a kind of entertainment. That was controversial and I think contributed to my not gaining any traction in the online news business in general. But when my daughter worked in DC for Congressman George Miller, she said SF Gate was by far the most popular site for Congressional staffers because of those headlines that also happened to point to what was then the most comprehensive offering of news on any site anywhere, with the Chronicle, Examiner, KRON, the entire AP feed and a lot of original content. That approach didn't square up with where the news business wanted to go. But while it was seen as irreverent, it was actually respecting the reader's time and their understanding of the world around them. And we punched way above our weight. Yes in 2000 the NYT site had 4 times the traffic we had, but they spent 20 times the money to do it. One thing about SF Gate, when Hearst took it over my plan was to spin it off and have it run its own newsroom. The Hearst brass rejected that. But that is what SF Gate does now.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #55 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:53
permalink #55 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:53
love the insider info about sfgate...
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #56 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:20
permalink #56 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:20
I should also say that I think the current SF Chronicle is pretty good and I read it daily. One reason SF Gate got off to a good start in 1994/5 was our focus on the sports section. Coming from the WELL, I had assumed that people on the Internet didn't like sports. But we got our web server up and running so early (March 1994) because Sun Microsystems, which wanted to propagate the WWW and especially their new program they called "Live Oak" but was renamed "Java" as what they called "executable content", set it up for us. The guy doing the setup work told us he was on a Sun hockey team, that there was a tech industry hockey league, and the tech world was loaded with sports fans. The Chronicle had, and still has, one of the best sports sections in the country, so we featured it heavily in those early days, which got us a ton of loyal readers working for tech companies. One stat I learned from Chronicle market research is that 2/3 of the public don't care about sports, or don't care much. But 1/3 do care and that adds up to a lot of readers. In 2007 I interviewed for a job at the MIT Media Lab. They had me give a presentation to the students. In it I said the greatest challenge was going to be determining what is true. I think today that challenge is even greater than I had imagined. In a world awash with BS, news orgs need to be beacons of reliably true statements. That said, I also think that everyone has a bias and it is most honest to admit that bias. I think the Guardian does a good job of this. The NYT and WaPo A sections do not.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #57 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:28
permalink #57 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:28
I am a fan (and sometime practitioner) of the more narrative form of journalism and will rise to its defense. It actually has its own Pulitzer category. It's usually NOT about a daily topic, more commonly a trend or unrecognized trend, so I don't think readers lose anything from it. They can read it, or not. But it is largely confined to national or at least big city organizations. Not sure smaller local news outlets can afford the reporter's time. They are time-intensive stories. Best current practitioner, IMO: Eli Zaslow. Who has won several of those Pulitzers. It was a big loss to the WashPost when he left for the NYT. One of my recent favorites: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/31/us/israel-gaza-war-integrated-refugee- immigrant-services.html
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #58 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:37
permalink #58 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:37
As for the programs at Columbia, our newish dean Jelani Cobb has an initiative (which he fundraised for; that's what deans largely do) to forgive the student loans for our grads who go to work in nonprofit newsrooms. As an increasing number do, even without that incentive. They are the ones hiring these days. And aside from some national efforts like The Marshall Project, they are local and regional. Houston. Hawaii. A couple in Texas. South Carolina. One in my town of Montclair NJ. Who knows whether they can hang in there long term, but for now it's a pretty vibrant area. Also, there's Report for America. I just finished writing recommendations for two of our alums. RFA frames itself as a service project: It partners with local newsrooms (broadcast, print, digital) to place young reporters where they're needed, and foots half the cost of their salaries. The news orgs pay a chunk and local donors do, too. The reporters stay for a year; most stay for two. https://www.reportforamerica.org/ I don't see either of these efforts solving the news desert problem, venture capitalism and consolidation being bigger forces than the good guys can muster, but they are lights in the wilderness.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #59 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:48
permalink #59 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:48
> I said the greatest challenge was going to be determining what is true. I > think today that challenge is even greater than I had imagined. For sure.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #60 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:49
permalink #60 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Thu 1 Feb 24 10:49
Here in the East Bay we have Berkeleyside and its younger sibling Oaklandside. I support them with cash donations, and I read Oaklandside regularly.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #61 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 11:01
permalink #61 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 11:01
yes i know i am always so full of good cheer --- but a question: there is that horrid wellknown phenom of some disturbing correlation between 'as a profession becomes more feminized it becomes devalued'. it's never been clear if 'because women are entering the field it becomes devalued' or 'because it's become devalued the barriers to entry are lower'. or some mix of the two... has that been happening here?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #62 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Thu 1 Feb 24 11:06
permalink #62 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Thu 1 Feb 24 11:06
I used to be a fan of narrative journalism, but it was a solution to a different crisis in the news business: How to compete with television. Now I am AWASH in stories about individual peoples lives, and if I ak going to pay for journalism, I prefer it to be data driven, big picture, long term: The stuff the amateurs can't deliver.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #63 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 14:33
permalink #63 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 14:33
Does this esteemed panel think that some high-profile news orgs skew their appearance of bias (because they may not actually have that bias or then again, they might) in a way that is more acceptable to conservative/GOP views because they don't want to be labeled as "liberal" or "woke"?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #64 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 16:43
permalink #64 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 16:43
Institutional caution is pretty common, John, but I don't think major news organizations are trying to be more conservative to avoid accusations of bias. I see a number of poorly crafted headlines that are held up as examples, but headlines online are written quickly and change throughout the day.The problem has a lot to do with having too few people to carefully do that work, in an environment in which many readers are hypersensitive to nuance in heds. Or so it seems to me.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #65 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 1 Feb 24 16:56
permalink #65 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 1 Feb 24 16:56
Also: Headlines that convey clearly to the reader what the storys about tend to get clicked more often.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #66 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:20
permalink #66 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:20
I don't see that bias either. But yeah, whatever the exact dynamic, you do see more women than ever in our very battered field. Like nursing, like teaching, like secretarial work. All once male professions. And like medicine, to a degree. Though journalism was never a well-paid prestige profession except at TV networks.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #67 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:22
permalink #67 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:22
Good headlines are good! I wish there were more of them. I wish headline writers didn't have to factor in things like SEO, which help bring reaaders to stories via search but which make it harder to write with elegance and nuance. And I feel for anyone who has to keep writing heds for a story that will be 5 different widths and sizes thorughout the day as the various stories change position to accommodate breaking news and other design requirements. Heds that worked in the print age, with sly literary references or smart interpretations, don't work as well in the online world. And don't get me started on the decisions of so many news organizations to slash their copydesks to save money in ways that doesn't undercut reporting. It makes it even harder. It's as if the world conspired to make headlines suck. And I'm amazed at how many good ones there still are.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #68 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:53
permalink #68 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 1 Feb 24 17:53
yeah, i recall admiring the work of the old-school headline writers...and less dramatic, but same same with copyeditors too.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #69 of 280: Alan Fletcher (af) Thu 1 Feb 24 18:01
permalink #69 of 280: Alan Fletcher (af) Thu 1 Feb 24 18:01
<scribbled by af Tue 6 Feb 24 11:42>
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #70 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 18:55
permalink #70 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 18:55
At the papers for which I worked, heads were written by copy editors, some of whom were also designing pages. I use that term loosely because so many sections were highly templated, with fewer design choices to make every night. So they also wrote heads and corrected misspellings and checked math and the million and one tiny important things that copy editors were born to fix. Its fun and rewarding work - a different kind of fun than reporting and writing are but I enjoy doing it and mourn its decline.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #71 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:03
permalink #71 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:03
<scribbled by lisa Thu 1 Feb 24 19:03>
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #72 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:06
permalink #72 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:06
Tex is right that classifieds used to keep the rest of the paper financially afloat, and Craigslist was a factor in their disappearance, but I think the bigger factor was improvement in search and the resulting search-based dotcoms. The biggest categories in classifieds were housing, vehicles and jobs, all areas where online search provided an improved user experience.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #73 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:14
permalink #73 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:14
Yes sure. Search was the engine behind almost all of it. I remember the day Google went live. Talk about a game changer. At SF Gate we used the WAIS search engine developed by Brewster Kahle mainly when he was still at MIT. It was designed to be adaptable so it could go to various sources and round them all up. Google was still some years away and the other search engines did a lousy job as the web grew like gangbusters daily.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #74 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:20
permalink #74 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:20
Im old enough to remember looking for jobs with the Sunday help wanted section and a red Flair pen.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #75 of 280: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:38
permalink #75 of 280: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 1 Feb 24 19:38
Oh, yeah. Trying to move up to SF from LA, sitting in the commons area in the Y going through the classifieds for someplace to rent and someplace to work ... and one of two guys sitting there asked me timidly if they could have the Sports section when I was done with the paper. "You can have it right now..."
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