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Forrest Mims: Maverick Scientist
permalink #26 of 128: Andrew Alden (alden) Thu 23 May 24 10:29
permalink #26 of 128: Andrew Alden (alden) Thu 23 May 24 10:29
Things like your daughter's experience are a wonderful example of DIY science that Scientific American was famous for. It was a shame what they did to you there.
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permalink #27 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Thu 23 May 24 11:24
permalink #27 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Thu 23 May 24 11:24
When I first got the invitation for a review copy, I mis-assumed it was a biography and not an auto-biography. I was thus surprised that there was no mention of Michael Farady, a prime example of an outsider (either no education or a different area of expertise) making significant contributions to a field. I guess modesty inhibited you from spelling that out! And for Scientific American, I always turned to Martin Gardner first! (And Daedalus in New Scientist). In college the lab staff always shuddered when I came in to do an experiment: I'd screw up something! ps: I still haven't managed to get the book to show legibly on my android (pdf) or kindle (epub), which are my main horizontal-reading devices.
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permalink #28 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 23 May 24 14:55
permalink #28 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 23 May 24 14:55
Heya Alan - Im sorry youre having trouble with the digital books. Ill follow up with you in email. Both the pdf and ePub look fine for me on the iPad, using the Goodreader and Kindle apps respectively.
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permalink #29 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Thu 23 May 24 15:27
permalink #29 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Thu 23 May 24 15:27
Alan, I have written about Michael Faraday and other well-known amateur scientists in my newspaper columns.
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permalink #30 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 23 May 24 21:20
permalink #30 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 23 May 24 21:20
I believe Emily is right -- the models don't depend on a rise in water vapor to produce warming. Scientists are still working through the complexities of water vapor's various feedback cycles, but the correlation between the models and observed warming has been extremely strong, as Zeke Hausfather has noted: <https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2019GL085378> And from what I understand, urban and rural areas' warming trends line up very well. It's a common trope for climate denialists, but it doesn't hold up. <https://skepticalscience.com/urban-heat-island-effect.htm> I don't expect Forest Mims to agree with me about this, but I wanted the other readers of this topic to understand that none of this is new to climate scientists, and some of it induces eye rolling.
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permalink #31 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Fri 24 May 24 05:41
permalink #31 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Fri 24 May 24 05:41
jswatz: The modelers consistently claim that water vapor will increase with warming. That has yet to be documented in my 34 years of measurements or NASA's global NVAP study. I am among those who actually measure climate using instruments. Modelers and commenters do not.
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permalink #32 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Fri 24 May 24 10:50
permalink #32 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Fri 24 May 24 10:50
It's true that water vapor is not increasing as expected in some areas: <https://news.ucar.edu/132936/climate-change-isnt-producing-expected- increase-atmospheric-moisture-over-dry-regions> It's also true that CO2 is still the driving force of planetary warming: <https://science.nasa.gov/earth/climate-change/steamy-relationships-how- atmospheric-water-vapor-amplifies-earths-greenhouse-effect/> And it's also true that climate models have, despite the need to still work out some of the intricacies of the effects of water vapor, been remarkably accurate, if not somewhat conservative. "âThe real message is that the warming we have experienced is pretty much exactly what climate models predicted it would be as much as 30 years ago,â he said. âThis really gives us more confidence that todayâs models are getting things largely right as well.â That quote is from Zeke Hausfather, a climate scientist who was part of a Berkeley Earth team that tried to debunk climate science and models and ended up saying they were on the mark. He's quoted here: <https://climate.mit.edu/posts/ucberkeley-mit-nasa-study-reports-accuracy- climate-models> He's speaking about a study I've already mentioned, which appeared in Geophysical Research Letters. <https://eps.harvard.edu/files/eps/files/hausfather_2020_evaluating_historical_ gmst_projections.pdf> I'm glad you're doing independent research, but there's no reason to claim you're proving more than you are actually proving.
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permalink #33 of 128: Hal (hal) Fri 24 May 24 13:11
permalink #33 of 128: Hal (hal) Fri 24 May 24 13:11
WHen I was in high school (1960 - 1964) - well ahead of your time at SciAm - I was one of a small group that faithfully read - and often tried out - the Amateur Scientist projects. It was all great fun and quite often something a 13- to 15- year old could finance on his own and build in the garage. Kids are still doing amateur science I guess but it seems less spontaneous. More organized. More competitive. Robotics clubs, for example, with sponsors building fairly expensive high tech stuff to enter into contests. Hoping for a win they can put on their college application. We were just kids having a good time and learning science. Perhaps I'm just a cranky old guy, complaining about how it was all better when I was young but I do wonder if something has been lost. Do homemade nickel-and-dime science projects done strictly for the fun of it still have a place? Has what we were doing on our own in high school become elementary school curriculum? Is it still quietly happening in garages everywhere, not drawing any more attention that it did sixty years ago?
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permalink #34 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Fri 24 May 24 18:24
permalink #34 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Fri 24 May 24 18:24
Those are great questions, Hal. The kids in those robotics and science project competitions have to have started somewhere, right?
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permalink #35 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 25 May 24 14:56
permalink #35 of 128: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 25 May 24 14:56
Oh, also: Hal, which of those Amateur Scientist projects that you did stand out when you look back? What did they involve?
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permalink #36 of 128: Hal (hal) Sat 25 May 24 21:20
permalink #36 of 128: Hal (hal) Sat 25 May 24 21:20
Wow ... it's been more than 60 years! One I remember - I think it was Amateur Scientist - was a water powered flip-flop. A flip-flop is a basic computer logic circuit. It has two stable states so it can store 1 bit of data. There must be 12 gazillion flip-flops in a modern PC. The thing was built using rubber tubing and the glass part of eyedroppers to direct streams of water to interfere with one another to make the thing change state. It was finicky as all getout but we got it to work more or less. In theory we could have strung a few of them together to build a one or two bit adder but getting the one going was sufficient. We used that understanding to "build" a four bit adder on paper. Another was a Foucault pendulum which used a metal weight as a bob with some simple circuitry make an electromagnet keep it in motion. We measured the precession of the bob's plane and worked out our latitude. AIR we came within a degree or so of the real thing.
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permalink #37 of 128: Keith Thomas (keitht) Sun 26 May 24 08:45
permalink #37 of 128: Keith Thomas (keitht) Sun 26 May 24 08:45
That reminds me of the "half adder" I learned about in the early 60s when digital was very new. I learned everything I could about electronics by self teaching, too early to be helped by Forrest's books, those came out after I had become a non-degreed Senior Electronic Engineer. But I read every book about electronics that I could find. My favorite was "The Radiotron Designer's Handbook" with 1500 pages and everything you needed to know, except transistors and digital logic. I started reading that at age 9, carried it through most of my school years. I bought a new copy in the 80's when it was re-released. Finding good sources of electronic knowledge was not easy back then. I exhausted school libraries, then public libraries and then university libraries. And then bought expensive narrow technical books with state of the art information about things like digital signal processing. All pre-Internet of course. I'm not sure how I would have fared in today's world where any electronic question can be answered with a quick search. Self teaching works - If you can focus and find the discipline to study hard. I had to find quiet parks to sit and contemplate the early microprocessor publications before they started to make sense. Distractions are the enemy of learning.
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permalink #38 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Sun 26 May 24 14:26
permalink #38 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Sun 26 May 24 14:26
holy guacamole, did Neal Stephenson write up that water-powered flip-flop in Cryptonomicon?
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permalink #39 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Sun 26 May 24 19:16
permalink #39 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Sun 26 May 24 19:16
Regarding the comments about science fairs and kids doing science, I both participated in science fairs during my teens and judged science fairs (including the International Science and Engineering Fair) as an adult. This experience provided persuasive evidence that science fair projects have become much less challenging than in the past. Physics and chemistry projects have become rare. Environmetal projects have taken over. Some are excellent, but many are not. I still recall the middle school project that claimed ozone is produced by gasoline-powered cars as proved by the black stain on cotton balls placed in exhaust pipes. At the opposite end of the spectrum are projects by students whose parent(s) work in professional or university labs. Those projects should be placed in a different category than standard science fair projects like those my three children did so well.
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permalink #40 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Sun 26 May 24 19:33
permalink #40 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Sun 26 May 24 19:33
jswatz: Regarding your comments about water vapor, most climate models assume that water vapor, the leading greenhouse gas, will increase as the climate warms. That simply has not yet occurred at my site, the AERONET site cited in my 30-year paper (1990-2020) in Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, the Smithsonian APO study (1926-1957), and many other studies. When I was an expert reviewer for IPCC Assessment Reports 5 and 6, they declined to include any papers claiming water vapor does not increase with temperature. There are various other popular claims about warming that are simply wrong. For example, there has been no significant change in the annual rise of sea level since at least 1880. As for temperature, consider that the temperatures measured by Thomas Jefferson at Monticello, James Madison at his nearby plantation, the Lewis and Clark expedition, and the US Exploring Expedition are remarkably similar to today's temperatures.
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permalink #41 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sun 26 May 24 22:30
permalink #41 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sun 26 May 24 22:30
I hope you <fmims> stay on for more general discussion .. (and <inkwell.> topics have no termination dates.) I'd prefer it if we stuck to the book. I particularly noticed the University of Kona <https://uofnkona.edu> and Mauna Loa chapter. I wonder if you ran into Richard Crowe, of Hilo (who died in a jeep roll-over in Arizona).
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permalink #42 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sun 26 May 24 22:33
permalink #42 of 128: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sun 26 May 24 22:33
University of Nations AT Kona.
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permalink #43 of 128: Okay, we're drifting... just one more point (jonl) Mon 27 May 24 07:22
permalink #43 of 128: Okay, we're drifting... just one more point (jonl) Mon 27 May 24 07:22
NCAR has a report (from last January) on the water vapor question, documented in the article linked below. It acknowledges that climate change is definitely happening, and that the lack of an increase in water vapor is a mystery: "[NCAR scientist Isla] Simpson and her co-authors say follow-up research is needed to determine why water vapor is not increasing. The reasons could have to do with moisture not moving from Earth's surface into the atmosphere as projected or circulating around the atmosphere in unanticipated ways. It's also possible that an entirely different mechanism could be responsible. "Adding to the mystery, the new study showed that while water vapor is increasing over humid regions of the world, it is not rising as much as expected during the most arid months of the year." <https://news.ucar.edu/132936/climate-change-isnt-producing-expected-increase-a tmospheric-moisture-over-dry-regions> Later in the article: "As for the question of why the water vapor in the atmosphere is not increasing over dry regions as expected, the authors broadly suggest two possibilities: the amount of moisture that is being moved from the land surface to the air may be lower than in models, or the way that the atmosphere is transporting moisture into dry regions may differ from the models."
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permalink #44 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 09:01
permalink #44 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 09:01
Alan, the University of the Nations (UofN) was founded in Kona, Hawaii. It's a non-denominational Christian international school with a unique format. Unlike traditional colleges with rigid schedules of courses, UofN students take one course per semester. I taught in the science and humanities school for some 17 years at the Kona campus and for 4-5 years at the Lausanne campus. The classes during my 1-week sessions typically had 10-15 students, some with prior college courses and even degrees. My students came from 16 countries around the world with typical ages of 19 to 25. One of my students was a 76-year-old woman. James Watt, former Secretary of the Interior, and his wife were also among my students. All courses are taught by individuals with significant experience in their field. My immediate supervisor for those 17 years was Dr. Derek Chignel, who headed the chemistry department at a major university before moving to UofN. The provost was Dr. Howard Malmstadt, the prominent author and chemist from the University of Illinois. Let me know if you would like information about the content of my course and how UofN played a prominent role in my work at Hawaii's Mauna Loa Observatory.
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permalink #45 of 128: Okay, we're drifting... just one more point (jonl) Mon 27 May 24 09:12
permalink #45 of 128: Okay, we're drifting... just one more point (jonl) Mon 27 May 24 09:12
Did you know Richard Crowe?
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permalink #46 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 11:52
permalink #46 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 11:52
Alan, sorry, but I have never heard of Richard Crowe.
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permalink #47 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Mon 27 May 24 14:22
permalink #47 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Mon 27 May 24 14:22
Jon, I provided the link to the UCAR research earlier in the thread. It's good. The lack of a rise in water vapor in some areas doesn't undercut theories of climate change at all; it's something scientists expect to happen that hasn't happened consistenly yet. Scientists also expect hurricanes to become more powerful as the planet warms, but the data on that is inconclusive so far â partly because the North Atlantic basin doesn't have so many storms that you can get statistical significance. But Kerry Emanuel at MIT has published research that strongly suggests it's already starting to happen. The sea-level-isn't-rising argument is a canard favored by soft denialists like Stephen Koonin. The folks at Skeptical Science have done a great job of demolishing that argument, and they are not alone. But they are more accessible than some sources. <https://skepticalscience.com/sea-level-not-rising.htm>
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permalink #48 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Mon 27 May 24 16:00
permalink #48 of 128: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Mon 27 May 24 16:00
Here's another piece that deals directly with Koonin's arguments, which he has published in a bad book: <https://climatefeedback.org/evaluation/wall-street-journal-article-repeats- multiple-incorrect-and-misleading-claims-made-in-steven-koonins-new-book- unsettled-steven-koonin/> I greatly respect Mims' work to help people understand technology and science and to start exploring. I'm just saying he's wrong about much of what he says about climate change.
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permalink #49 of 128: Andrew Trott (druid) Mon 27 May 24 17:25
permalink #49 of 128: Andrew Trott (druid) Mon 27 May 24 17:25
As a newcomer to this particular point can I ask where exactly the water vapor data fit into the larger picture? Are they thought to refute the whole global warming hypothesis or do they simply point to deficiencies in the existing models? I'm no scientist but I do know rhetoric and I'm trying to understand why Mr. Mims thinks it's so important that (if) the water vapor data do not conform to the models?
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permalink #50 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 17:58
permalink #50 of 128: Forrest Mims (fmims) Mon 27 May 24 17:58
jswatz and Andrew Trott: jswatz writes: "...he's wrong about much of what he says about climate change." Please be specific. Was I wrong to acknowledge warming? My major point is simply that column water vapor has not increased as predicted by most if not all climate models. That's simply a fact affirmed by various papers and measurement series such as mine. I did not seriously challenge the models beyond their omission of important water vapor measurements, so perhaps I should. For example, none of the 40 climate models used in the IPCCs Assessment Report 5 correctly profiled global temperatures. Only one came close. This was a major embarrassment for the IPCC, and Assessment Report 6 did better. As for the many unfulfilled predictions about climate change, what has happened to snowless winters? Why is NOAA's historic climate network providing much flatter temperature data than the weather services poorly placed measurement stations, many of which are placed near heat islands. Who placed a large black metal plate directly under the fenced and locked temperature station at the Maryland science museum? (I photographed it.) Why do claims about sea level rise not include the fact the upward trend in sea level has not significantly changed since 1880? As for the Climategate scandal years ago, why did the British police consider me a Climategate suspect when, as co-founder and editor of Science Probe! magazine, I simply asked if the purloined emails were legitimate. (They were.) Then there are the many instances where authentic science is ignored. For example, consider the MONTHLY WEATHER REVIEW of November 1922 [p. 589] and its rather astonishing report entitled "THE CHANGING ARCTIC" by George Nicolas (IFFT), which begins: "[Under date of October 10 1922, the American consul at Bergen, Norway, Submitted the following report to the State Department, Washington, D. C.] "The Arctic seems to be warming up. Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers who sail the seas about Spitzbergen and the eastern Arctic, all point to a radical change in climatic conditions, and hitherto unheard- of high temperatures in that part of the earth's surface. "In August, 1922, the Norwegian Department of Commerce sent an expedition to Spitzbergen and Bear Island geology at the University of Christiania...." This rather amazing report describes unprecedented warming in a region known for its chilly conditions. The report is still online, but I've not seen it cited in an IPCC report.
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