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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #26 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 2 Jan 25 00:25
permalink #26 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 2 Jan 25 00:25
With that said about our bleak assessments, I hate that forced and phony optimism where some stricken guy is grimly and factually going blind and some pollyanna comments-guy has to remark, "Oh well, think how nicely you'll learn to play the piano!" Upbeat sentiment should be reserved for somebody who really gets a good break. This year, I can single out one significant public figure whose fortunate life must feel truly blessed by good-fortune: Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. Here's a guy who's just a flat-out Global War on Terror terrorist. He's Al Qaeda, he's ISIS, he was captured by American occupiers in Iraq and kept in an American jail for doing his level best to shoot Americans. Also Russians want to kill him, Syrians want to kill him, Iranians, Kurds, Israelis, the much-oppressed black-clad girl-next-door, whomever... And then, in just a couple of weeks, Jolani's little-known militia topples the regime and presto, he's the warlord head-of-state and in 2025 everybody wants to kiss him.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #27 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 2 Jan 25 00:25
permalink #27 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 2 Jan 25 00:25
Then ten-million dollar Yankee prize-on-his-head for being such a lifelong militant baddie, it just evaporates overnight. The former New World Order, the Coalition of the Willing, they're embarrassed to mention it, even. He's got brand-new friends, like the Ukrainians, who will send him boatloads of tasty bread. Nothing succeeds like success, eh? I know that Jolani's probably pulling a long face now and stroking his long beard -- "uneasy lies the head that wears the crown," and all that -- but there are lottery-winners way less lucky than Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. Maybe we should ask his new press officer for some good advice on how to get by.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #28 of 154: Koert van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 04:39
permalink #28 of 154: Koert van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 04:39
Happy New Year to the WELL communityBruce, Jon, and all the thinkers here. As we celebrate 25 years of rich dialogue in this forum, its the perfect time to envision the grand scale of our future. Our ongoing discussions have underscored the pivotal role of technology and its integration into every aspect of life. Bruce has eloquently highlighted how our medium of interactiononce the frontier of innovation, now almost quaintshapes our societal narrative. This evolution compels us to consider the broader implications of technology as our nextnature. Scientists have calculated that the technosphere is now heavier than the biosphere, which undoubtedly causes significant friction. Looking ahead, I see immense potential in aligning technological growth with ecological and social sustainability. The concept of solarpunk, an optimistic vision of the future that integrates green technology and humanistic values, could serve as a guiding principle for our discussions. How can we leverage our collective knowledge and technological capabilities to create a future that is desirable not just for a few billionaires, but for all life on the planet and the planet at large? The next 25 years could be transformative, shaping a world where technology supports both the planet and its people. Lets continue to share and explore ideas that will help us build this future together.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #29 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 06:55
permalink #29 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 06:55
Koert van Mensvoort is our featured guest in this year's "State of the World" conversation. Koert is an artist, philosopher and scientist best known for his work on the philosophical concept of Next Nature. "It is his aim to better understand our co-evolutionary relationship with technology and help set out a track towards a future that is rewarding for both humankind and the planet at large." <https://nextnature.org/en/people/team/koert-van-mensvoort>
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #30 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
permalink #30 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
Human success and resilience as a species depends on how we organize. To the extent that our organization and communication lack coherence, we will be less successful. We're in a time of transition from the print era, which led to specific ways of gathering, organizing, and sharing information that ultimately became mass media and mass governance. We probably scaled beyond our capabilities, but that's a story for another day. Today I just want to acknowledge that the print era has ended, and the Internet era has begun, and has been mainstreaming and evolving for over three decades. It's only just beginning, really. The print era's effects took about three centuries to clarify as the sort of top-down information flow and governance model that I grew up with. Some of you who are younger have experienced more of the chaos of transition than the stability of mature models. (Hat tip to Jeff Jarvis for insights from his book _The Gutenberg Parenthesis_.)
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #31 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
permalink #31 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
It's critical for our survival and our resilience that we find our way through the current chaos, that we find new ways and models for coherent and stable social organization and information-sharing. To get past the crazy times, I suggest that we need to get good at forming smaller communities using tools and methods that work in cyberspace. (Community is simply defined as a group of people who get together because of a common interest or affinity.)
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #32 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
permalink #32 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:21
Currently we have "social media" that contributes to the contemporary chaos, working against coherence and collaboration. Social media is primarily designed for broadcasting content and facilitating large-scale sharing of ideas, images, videos, and updates, contributing more to polarization than to coherence. And because it's monetized by advertising, it sees its users, not as participants in a larger conversation, but as the source of a resource (attention) to be sold (to advertisers). It focuses on reaching wide audiences and driving engagement metrics (likes, shares, followers). It realizes that conflict drives engagement, so it facilitates and rewards conflict.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #33 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:22
permalink #33 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 2 Jan 25 07:22
How can we build communities that work to mitigate polarization and conflict? For the last 35 years, I've been part of a successful online community called The WELL, which has actually been around for four decades. The WELL, over time, figured out a few things about communities that work, partly because its early directors came from an "IRL" intentional community, The Farm. It's not that there is no conflict in a community like the WELL, but that conflict occurs within a sense of coherent community, often resolved through ongoing conversation and sharing of perspective as members of the community build a history together.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #34 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 09:05
permalink #34 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 09:05
PHRED! How great to see you here!
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #35 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 09:16
permalink #35 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 09:16
> Social media is primarily designed for broadcasting content and facilitat- > ing large-scale sharing of ideas, images, videos, and updates, contributing > more to polarization than to coherence. I don't disagree, but there are also plenty of positive uses for it. I play a live show on FB and YouTube every day since the pandemic shut down my touring life. I have a group of regulars who are there almost every day, and I have made a bit of money in tips. I sell my music and authgraphed books online. I don't pay attention to my likes nor my follower count; I just post my gig announcement and share links to my stuff. Bluesky isn't yet set up for direct livestreeaming from the platform I use, but I share the link to my YouTube feed every day and it plays right there on the Bsky page so it's almost a livestream. I am not beset by attacks from the right, and I am not overwhelmed by ads. I ignore a lot of stuff online in exactly the samw way I ignore the ads that arrive in my mailbox and with my Sunday newspaper. I don't need to do a huge amount of business to keep my thing afloat, so what I am able to accomplish in this way is sufficient.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #36 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:52
permalink #36 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:52
Thank you, Jon, for the introduction and your insights into the transition from the print to the Internet era and its associated challenges. I appreciate your focus on creating smaller, coherent communities like the legendary WELL. These communities demonstrate how technology can do more than just connect usit can foster genuine, supportive interactions, even amidst conflicts. This leads to an important question: Can we redesign our digital spaces to prioritize human values over profit, thereby enhancing our collective resilience and bridging divides?
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #37 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:52
permalink #37 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:52
Over a decade ago, biologist Edward O. Wilson was asked if humans could solve the crises they would face over the next century. He responded, "Yes, if we are honest and smart," and highlighted that "The real problem of humanity is the following: We have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology." Much of our current troubles stem from this mismatch. Biologically, we are not equipped to cope with planetary challenges like climate change, urbanization, deforestation, and artificial intelligence, which surpass the evolutionary pressures of the savanna where humans evolved. If we are honest and smart, we will acknowledge our limitations and harness technology to help us navigate these global challenges.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #38 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:58
permalink #38 of 154: David Gans (tnf) Thu 2 Jan 25 12:58
> We have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technol- > ogy. !!!
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #39 of 154: magdalen (magdalen) Thu 2 Jan 25 15:36
permalink #39 of 154: magdalen (magdalen) Thu 2 Jan 25 15:36
> If we are honest and smart yes, well, it's hard to see a lot of people being honest and smart these days. policy appears to be dictated by money, power mongers, big corporations, and the usual. i would love for us to be honest and smart. it's hard enough to ask ourselves to do it within thoughtful, probing communities that believe in critical thinking (including self-examination). the populace at large? politicians? Donald Trump? not to mention the former tech gods many of our ilk fawned over in days past. "Don't be evil," said Google. sure, yeah, don't be evil. that didn't last. Elon Musk? are capable of being honest and smart, or of holding our plutocratic leaders to account for failing to achieve honesty and smarts?
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #40 of 154: Bruce Fox (brucefox) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:00
permalink #40 of 154: Bruce Fox (brucefox) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:00
We've done this before. Homo Sap has been around long enough to have gone through a few cycles of ice ages and then hot periods. It gets hot, we move north. There's enough land area there to support a coup;e billion people. I think that mankind will survive and that the planet will be just fine, maybe after another ice age plows the temperate zones under again.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #41 of 154: Bruce Fox (brucefox) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:01
permalink #41 of 154: Bruce Fox (brucefox) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:01
Troubles in the near term, though.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #42 of 154: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:37
permalink #42 of 154: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 2 Jan 25 17:37
wrt #20, i adore this ed zitron but did wonder who would hire him to do PR (his day job, i believe) wrt #40, of course climate change (nod to late lamented viridian mailing list). but somehow discussion of the environment seems mostly about climate change --- and ignores the polluted planet we are living on and the ever increasing amount of petrochemical gunk. not new info but does seem often to be left out of the discussion.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #43 of 154: Craig Louis (craig1st) Thu 2 Jan 25 19:53
permalink #43 of 154: Craig Louis (craig1st) Thu 2 Jan 25 19:53
Hi Paulina <40> love the optimism but I do hope that whatever catalyzes a steep population reduction back down to a couple billion is not too traumatic.. :-)
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #44 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:05
permalink #44 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:05
"You've often talked about "the stacks" -- Meta/FB, MSFT, AMZN and the others who turned early visions of online global solidarity into history's most effective machine for enclosing the cultural commons and turning it into the maze of gray ooze, pervasive surveillance and hyperaccumulator of money and power we now swim in." *Yeah, I think that "stacks" might have been a useful term for a while, because you could see the big platforms trying to integrate themselves in various stacked layers and try to become the universal everything for everybody. However, that was back when "Big Tech" still thought they had "users" and "customers." Now they're really, really Big Tech, and they're basically oligarchic structures that exist to move wealth to shareholders while immiserating everybody else. And the closer you get to them, the worse off you are -- of course the "users" are the "product," and everybody knows that, but you can actually witness the fear and misery in the faces of their employees now. They've become cruel.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #45 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:06
permalink #45 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:06
The "gray ooze" is "enshittification." But there's a lot of this slime metaphor, it's all over the place in 2025. If you're Trumpian, all forms of governance are "the swamp." The existent power arrangement, ie law-and-order, is also known as "the deep-state" and "the blob." There's no concept that governance is a publicly-visible republican structure that might be examined, amended and methodically reformed. Instead, what used to be your "state" or your "civilization" is like a haze of pollution that you have to breathe, or it's a mysterious slimy sewage in your water. So "stack" is too neat, clean and technocratic to describe the existent oligarchy. Even the oligarchs are in the mire. If you're a modern oligarch, you're kind of happy about Trump, or Putin, or even Xi, but nobody however rich-or-powerful much wants to be seen standing next to him, or to risk embracing him, or be his loyal lieutenant to bask in his honor and fame. Putin will flat out poison you or blow up your private jet, but Trump will defraud you and defame you; you might like to be a shining captain-of-industry, but there's mud on your face; you're ashamed and you feel beslimed and dirty, all the time.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #46 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:08
permalink #46 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:08
People don't like to be shamed and defamed, even when they're genuinely shameless and their behavior is genuinely infamous. So in contemporary framing they tend to blame their situation on a semi-random slimy fog, like, "I didn't do anything genuinely bad, this is merely Cancel-Culture attacking me" or in Russia, "Well, the world isn't actually afraid of our aggressions, instead it's a planetary mental-illness called Russophobia, which should be illegal." It's like watching "malaria" theory when everybody has somehow agreed never to believe in mosquitoes. I mean, the mosquitoes are there, and they're humming and whining in drone-like clouds, they're chock-full of spirochetes, too, but they're kinda structural whenever you live in an enshittified swamp, so there's no use imagining that you could get rid of 'em. You just age in your big city while you're vaguely afraid of the sky.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #47 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:10
permalink #47 of 154: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 3 Jan 25 00:10
I'm very happy that Koert van Mensvoort is here, because Prof. Koert is a guy from the world's most civilized and well-developed swamp. Also Koert works inside a giant UFO in Eindhoven, which is a place that has to be seen to be believed.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #48 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 3 Jan 25 01:28
permalink #48 of 154: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 3 Jan 25 01:28
The narrative complexity of the moment defies useful comprehension as voices and assumptions proliferate, a babelian cacophony, signal lost in prevailing noise. I'm finding it hard to find any kind of certainty that I can interpret or describe the state of the world or of evolving societies based on wild combinations of traditional and social media I'm exposed to, as someone whose daily explorations are fairly broad and rife with contradiction, conflicting interpretations, "alternate facts." This is my disclaimer: I can give eyewitness testimony, but my perceptions are suspect, the realities I'm describing are malleable, convoluted, and may not conform to the reality you're experiencing. I miss the day when Huntley and Brinkely or Walter Cronkite could explain the world in fifteen minutes a day, and we were all hearing the same story. That wasn't "truth," but at least more of us were on the same page, in the same book, from the same library.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #49 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Fri 3 Jan 25 03:15
permalink #49 of 154: Van Mensvoort (koert) Fri 3 Jan 25 03:15
Thank you, Jon, for capturing the complex narrative of our times so vividly. Your reflections underscore the need for a focused dialogue on the profound transitions we are experiencing. In today's world, the sum of all technology on the planet already outweighs the sum of all biology: the technosphere is heavier than the biosphere. This fact alone should give us pause and motivate a reevaluation of our trajectory. This "big tech" isn't just about the corporations we often discuss; it's about a fundamental shift in the material substrate of our planet and, consequently, in the existential fabric of our society. The latest comments from Bruce and others in this discussion bring to light the pervasive challenges of governance in the face of such transformative power. We're navigating an era where our technological capabilities far exceed the systems of governance and morality that guide them. This misalignment leads to what Edward O. Wilson described as a disconnect between our "Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology." As we consider this big picture, the essential transition isn't just technological but deeply societal and ethical. We must strive to develop technologies and systems that do not merely advance human ingenuity but also enhance the collective well-being of all life. Our focus must be on creating a future where technology serves as a backbone for a healthy planet and a cohesive society, rather than as a catalyst for division and degradation.
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Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #50 of 154: Paulina Borsook (loris) Fri 3 Jan 25 03:32
permalink #50 of 154: Paulina Borsook (loris) Fri 3 Jan 25 03:32
wrt #43, have often had the same thought, another version of the nuclear winter's 'a republic of insect and grasses' and the message of 'earth abides' (the book, not the horrid current dramatization): fewer humans, nature recovers. maybe...but plastic is forever.
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