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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #26 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Wed 24 Sep 25 17:02
permalink #26 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Wed 24 Sep 25 17:02
Here's a website for the film, with a trailer down the page some. <https://www.meritsproductions.com/projects/the-paradox-of-seabrook-farms> In ways, it's about a vanished place in a vanished society,â partnering paternalism and exploitation. "Being taken care of"â along with "toeing the line".
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #27 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Wed 24 Sep 25 23:21
permalink #27 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Wed 24 Sep 25 23:21
Wow.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #28 of 48: Tom Howard (tom) Thu 25 Sep 25 01:52
permalink #28 of 48: Tom Howard (tom) Thu 25 Sep 25 01:52
John, thanks so much for being here and of course your notes! I haveâ the book but haven't got to it yet; slow reader, piles of books, aiâ yi yi. Meanwhile the book isn't going anywhere. heh. It wasâ astounding to read the reviews and now this. Just thanks again.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #29 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 25 Sep 25 13:09
permalink #29 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 25 Sep 25 13:09
<scribbled by jreacher Thu 25 Sep 25 13:10>
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #30 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 25 Sep 25 13:10
permalink #30 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 25 Sep 25 13:10
It was a good day when Lisa, your wife, told you to get off theâ sauce or she would leave you. Finding it a creditable ultimatum, youâ came under the care of a Manhattan family therapist who for years,â helped you find your way back to sobriety. Jack and C.K. had bothâ been heavy drinkers, so, as she told you, you came by the problemâ honestly. Today, Seabrook House, your grandfatherâs home, isâ headquarters of a network of drug and alcohol centers. Can you tellâ about learning to manage your drinking and the importance of yourâ children, particularly Rose, in your rehabilitation. And please sayâ something about the drug and alcohol centers.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #31 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 25 Sep 25 19:34
permalink #31 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 25 Sep 25 19:34
Second that. The river of booze running through the book was well- written, and definitely made me prick up my ears.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #32 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Sat 27 Sep 25 15:50
permalink #32 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Sat 27 Sep 25 15:50
Well, regarding alcohol...as you know if you've read the book it wasâ really part of my patrimony. The word "capacity" kind of haunts theâ book. Alcohol meant a number of things to the Seabrooks. First ofâ all, it was a class signifier. The Seabrooks needed to master classâ signifiers like wine and clothes because they were in a hurry toâ convince their wealthy contacts that they belonged among them. C.F.â never finished high school and the culture into which he was bornâ was provincial, illiberal, and working class. So mastery ofâ cocktails and French wine was a way of "passing" socially. It was aâ deadly serious business. But alcohol was also a test -- although you weren't told you wereâ taking a test. Empty glasses were always refilled, to see who wouldâ have the self control to stop short of getting plastered and whoâ wouldn't. Often it was the upper class people who the Seabrooks hadâ managed to finagle as guests who got the drunkest -- which gave theâ Seabrooks great satisfaction, and made them feel superior. And finally, it was tribal, booze was like this sacred juice thatâ made you one of them, taken around the time of puberty. Anyway I flunked the test, repeatedly. This was tolerated, even byâ mother, which is kind of crazy because she came from a family ofâ alcohol abusers. And since they never seemed to think I had aâ drinking problem, I never thought I had a drinking problem either.â Lisa my wife also put up with it for a number of years, until itâ reached a point where she gave me that ultimatum -- which I wasâ stunned by. But of course she was right. Therapy helped me recognize how my drinking was tied up with familyâ heritage, which kind of mitigated a lot of the shame around it, butâ going to AA was the thing that made me stop. Not doing the steps,â just sitting in those rooms with people who came to their drinkingâ in all kinds of different ways, but realizing we were all really theâ same -- addicts. Also writing about it helped. Writing about it was kind of likeâ standing up in a room and sharing, but it also creates a permanentâ record, like an oath you've sworn to on the page, and a pact you'veâ made with readers, who kind of act as witnesses. Like, I've sworn,â I'm sober, it's in print, there's no taking it back.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #33 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:47
permalink #33 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:47
Yes, the one point where your parents introduce you to alcohol, andâ you get smashed, and then later you overhear the comment that maybeâ you weren't as mature as they had hoped ... all the subtext there.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #34 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:50
permalink #34 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:50
I tried your old-fashioned recipe last weekend and got rightâ cheerful and even a trifle silly -- A triple shot of bourbon on ice with a teaspoon of sugar, bitters,â and a wedge of orange.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #35 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:53
permalink #35 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:53
And of course, self-medication for people who had doubts about theirâ place in their society, in their family, their success, and theirâ definition of success. Your father's avocation of the four-in-hand driving felt likeâ another defense mechanism - this unassailable esoteric niche ofâ mastery with its "money-pit" aspect. I can't even imagine what itâ cost to ship horses to England. And of course was it Fedex or UPSâ that the company paid for to send them to Canada? Fedexingâ horses!!! The logistics. What were his thoughts on other horse endeavors such as dressage andâ the Clydesdale teams?
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #36 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:53
permalink #36 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Sat 27 Sep 25 16:53
>an oath you've sworn to on the page Nice.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #37 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Sat 27 Sep 25 19:35
permalink #37 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Sat 27 Sep 25 19:35
It took a fast study to know so much about so many things at such aâ young age. Jack's knowledge of the best wines must have exceeded aâ master sommelier's, and he he seemed to know the proper attire forâ whatever occasion -- garden parties, picnics, receptions, weddings, â funerals, formal dinners, etc. He knew when to wear a cutawayâ morning coat with striped trousers and when a white tie with blackâ trousers would be more approriate. His wardrobe was vast and he knewâ all the best Savile Row tailors. I suppose all this fits in with theâ defense mechanism Sweeney mentions.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #38 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Mon 29 Sep 25 13:41
permalink #38 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Mon 29 Sep 25 13:41
I was shocked by a couple of things I ran across in Stephanieâ Hinnershitz's book _Japanese American Incarceration: The Camps andâ Coerced Labor During World War II_ (U. of PA Press, 2021): One, that Seabrook Farms employed German POWS! They had vacated byâ 1944, requiring replacements by Japanese Americans. (242) Two, the Japanese American workers included Japanese Peruvians, whomâ the Peruvian government detained when Peru joined the Allies andâ agreed to ship the Japanese Peruvians to the prison camp at Crystalâ City, Texas, to be used in potential exchanges with American POWsâ that Japan was holding. That's a whole other sordid story, but theâ Seabrook connection that is shocking is that they were treated worseâ than the continental US Japanese Americans. For one thing, theyâ "were forced by Seabrook to pay extra 'taxes' to the company becauseâ of their supposed illegal entry. Seabrook deducted 33 percent fromâ the paychecks / of the Japanese Peruvians, 'so by the time they gotâ their paycheck there was hardly anything. And because there was soâ little left, they couldn't go to town to buy groceries, 'cause thenâ you had to pay the bus which was like twenty or ten cents . . .'â This forced the workers to go to the company store which afforded noâ opportunities to save money to leave Seabrook Farms." (242-243)
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #39 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Mon 29 Sep 25 16:31
permalink #39 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Mon 29 Sep 25 16:31
I wish I'd known about the Hinnershitz book when I was writing mine.â I didn't know about the 'taxes' and the 33 percent. Holy shit. One of the issues I had writing this book was balancing theâ admirable things the Seabrooks did with the awful things. Which kindâ of goes to my twin roles as family memoirist and muck rakingâ journalist. As a journalist investigating and exposing corruption,â racism, and fascism in a business, you want to lay it on as thick asâ possible to blacken the reputation of the perpetrators forever. Butâ when it's your family you're investigating, your loyalties areâ divided. If it's too negative it's off putting for the reader; theâ narrator seems like a rat. And in the Seabrooks case, they did doâ some good or at least admirable things. They basically inventedâ frozen vegetables, though of course Birdseye owned the process. Inâ doing so they got a lot of vitamins into people who didn't haveâ access to fresh and didn't eat canned. Also frozen vegetables wereâ more affordable in a lot of cases. And then there was theirâ ingenuity, their drive, the science they brought to growing andâ producing vegetables (growth units) and all the workers who feltâ like working at Seabrook Farms was the best time of their lives. Theâ book is a balancing act. There were places I had to cut stuff (likeâ the Estonian opera singers) because it threw the balance off. I'mâ not sure what I would have done with that information about theâ Peruvians. The journalist would have wanted to use it! Yes, that's the recipe for an old-fashioned that will definitelyâ light a warm glow inside you. Regarding horses. The coaching world is distinct from the racingâ world which is different from the polo world and the dressage worldâ and the Clydesdales/farm horse world, and it's not that uncommon inâ my experience for people to know a lot about one and nothing aboutâ the others. Each attracts a different kind of person. My dad didâ know quite a bit about Morgan horse, which were bred in Vermont.â It's why he ended up getting Nimrod North. He had a friend who was aâ pretty serious polo player, George "frolic" Weymouth. He went to theâ Garden State Race Track from time to time. But coaching eventuallyâ swallowed his attention as well as much of his money.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #40 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Mon 29 Sep 25 17:51
permalink #40 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Mon 29 Sep 25 17:51
Speaking of money, IIRC, 25K acres of the Seabrook farm were ownedâ outright by the family, and of that some 2K acres wound up in aâ trust for you and your children and grandchildren. At age 66, willâ you now focus on managing that trust exclusively, or do you plan toâ continue with a writing career?
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #41 of 48: John Seabroo (seabrook) Tue 30 Sep 25 19:43
permalink #41 of 48: John Seabroo (seabrook) Tue 30 Sep 25 19:43
Iâm back to writing for the New Yorker. (I have a short piece inâ there this week and a longer one about sports architecture comingâ soon. Iâll be in Sofi this Thursday for the Rams Niners game.)â Iâm much more competent at writing than I am at managing money.â Most of the Seabrooks money ended up with the Princeton Theologicalâ Seminary, the Westminster Chois College, the Bridgeton Hospital, andâ my Aunt Thelma.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #42 of 48: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 1 Oct 25 07:21
permalink #42 of 48: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 1 Oct 25 07:21
In today's political ecosystem we're seeing themes of ambition,â power, and decline play out. If I'd written a book two decades agoâ with a narrative that resembles what we're seeing now, it would'veâ been rejected as too crazy. Much of The Spinach King touches on just those themes. Do you seeâ your familyâs story as uniquely American? Do you see personalitiesâ in today's politics that make you think of your grandfather andâ father?
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #43 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Thu 2 Oct 25 14:02
permalink #43 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Thu 2 Oct 25 14:02
> One of the issues I had writing this book was balancing theâ admirable things the Seabrooks did with the awful things. Which kindâ of goes to my twin roles as family memoirist and muck rakingâ journalist. . . . The book is a balancing act. Oh absolutely, John. And I think you do a great job with theâ balancing.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #44 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 2 Oct 25 15:00
permalink #44 of 48: Ruskin Teeter (jreacher) Thu 2 Oct 25 15:00
Yes. Yes!
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #45 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Thu 2 Oct 25 15:33
permalink #45 of 48: Frako Loden (frako) Thu 2 Oct 25 15:33
I just got done reading the most appalling chapter in the Seabrookâ Farms story: the 1934 summer strike. You can see some footage of a moment during the strike, when Blackâ women strikers started pulling scab-picked beets off a truck andâ were wrestled away by strikebreakers. Halfway through this: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmGaJuAPJkQ>
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #46 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 2 Oct 25 19:54
permalink #46 of 48: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 2 Oct 25 19:54
John, is that something you wanted to talk about further with relatives?
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #47 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Fri 3 Oct 25 18:22
permalink #47 of 48: John Seabrook (seabrook) Fri 3 Oct 25 18:22
I'm glad you put that link to the strike footage into the thread.â It's incredible that it exists. Just one of many things that turnedâ up on the internet in the course of my research. Of course we'reâ used to everything being recorded on video today - but in 1934? On aâ farm in remote South Jersey. Just incredible. Well yes in fact there is a father and son in today's politics thatâ resemble my grandfather and his relationship with his sons. Thatâ would be "the Henry Ford of Housing" Fred Trump and his sons Fredâ and Donald. Fred Jr spiraled into alcoholism as a result of hisâ father's abuse, and Donald became a malignant narcissist to survive.â My dad charted kind of a middle path between those two toxicâ reactions to the abusive patriarch and founder. My dad thoughtâ Donald was vulgar and paid him little mind, but I'm kind of gratefulâ that he died before Trump became a candidate because I'm pretty sureâ he would have voted for him. He did vote for McCain a few monthsâ before he died. I remember sitting in his bedroom with my hippieâ niece Adriana when we got the news Obama had won, and celebratingâ while he kind of moaned in his sleep. If anyone in my family would like to discuss the book/CF with me I'dâ be happy to. So far no one has.
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John Seabrook: The Spinach King
permalink #48 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Fri 3 Oct 25 18:39
permalink #48 of 48: E. Sweeney (sweeney) Fri 3 Oct 25 18:39
>If anyone in my family would like to discuss the book/CF with meâ I'd be >happy to. So far no one has. Huh. Interesting. Families can be so weird.
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