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permalink #176 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:00
permalink #176 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:00
I was happy to see Moxie Marlinspike weigh in on the web3 debate. He didn't just mock it. He built something and kicked the tires like a QA tester or security researcher would do, looking for weaknesses and explaining what he found. This is criticism worth reading, tech blogging at its best. <https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html> And I always enjoy reading posts from Vitalik Buterin, who responded here: <https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/ryk3it/my_first_impressions_of_web3 /hrrz15r/> It seems like they don't really disagree on the details. The current state of things is pretty bad. The disagreement seems more about temperament: is better to be patient or impatient? Marlinspike is probably impatient based on his background. He wants Signal to win market share from WhatsApp and other chat services. He seems to be thinking like a startup founder - you need to build the features that users want, and if you're too slow you become irrelevant, run out of money, and everyone leaves. The urgent style seems native to social media and the press. We are living in unprecedented times, etc etc. And it's also native to financial markets. By contrast, most of what Buterin writes exudes calm and patience. Protocols last a long time and we can think carefully about what we do next. If a feature isn't ready, we'll delay it. Other people can do what they want in the meantime, but we're building things that last and can take the time to think things through and achieve consensus. Whatever problems users are running into now isn't our problem. When we ship a protocol improvement, people will use what we built. Someday we'll see if being patient worked out for them.
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permalink #177 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:23
permalink #177 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:23
Where the Internet is concerned, we're not patient because we never really had to be. Consider how fast http/html rolled out, and how we've had so much evolution without much disruption. At least that's how it appears to me. Whereas the blockchain has been around for so many years, and few if any of us have had our hands on a workable blockchain solution, other than the aforementioned speculative investments in cryptocurrencies. And maybe some of the NFT stuff (nodding to Vinay and Pat). In 2017 I was trying to get my head around this stuff, and Doug Rushkoff invited me to join him on a panel about the blockchain. I did prep work before that panel, trying to get my head around what was happening. I read a lot about potential use cases and strategies, but it's been 4 years and none of that stuff seems to have come together. I've also had the feeling that some of the more vocal advocates really don't understand the technology so much as the promise they've been hearing - that we can build something both effective and decentralized. That's a hard problem. Meanwhile the world is experiencing increasing levels of climate instability, and sliding into authoritarian governance (dare I say fascism) in so many countries including the USA. Will the blockchain fix climate change? Will DAOs decentralize governance toward some kind of enlightenment (vs the endarkenment we see around us)? Or are we fiddling while the planet burns?
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permalink #178 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:31
permalink #178 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:31
One of the games we play in the blockchain space is "which year is it on the blockchain?" Some people will say 1999, right before the dotcom crash. Some people will say 1980, microcomputer revolution just starting. I think it's more like 1976. The blockchain is a component of something bigger, something which will tie all the world's computing resources into a single addressable problem-solving supercomputing surface - all the underutilize compute resources in the world, cheaply recruitable to your problem. Blockchain is a small part of getting us there. It solves a couple of problems: namespace management, and possibly (not necessarily) payments.
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permalink #179 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:32
permalink #179 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:32
On blockchains and climate change, if I may suggest: https://medium.com/humanizing-the-singularity/can-the-world-computer-save-the- world-part-3-building-an-economy-with-a-future-5d4156f06a04 in which I suggest that we use blockchains for carbon accounting.
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permalink #180 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:32
permalink #180 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:32
Yeah, the U.S. news industry's a mess. Neither the editorial nor the business side showed much foresight as online publishing began in the 1990s. The money people couldn't conceive of an end to the rivers of advertising revenue: display and classifieds. The publishers and editors in chief loved their paper publications so much that they were still dragging heels on digital well into the 2000s. There's tons of exciting innovation happening now in news with formats, revenue streams, the relationships between newsrooms and the communities they serve...but we're decades into right-wing billionaires pouring money into disinformation cloaked as news. Meanwhile, among the fruits of the Reagan era, weaker regulations had become "common sense." Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act of 1996, ending decades of federal efforts to maintain decentralized ownership of news media. Further, the kind of civics education I had in public school in the 1970s was beginning to erode. That curriculum was often hokey and largely limited to majoritarian white and capitalist perspectives of U.S. history. However, it did get across a number of important basics, such how our government is structured. Fast forward to the late 2010s, and only one in four Americans can name the three branches of government. In my Queens classroom, we even had a lesson one day on how to navigate the different sections of a newspaper and read a newspaper article. I wonder if anyone still does that. The Takeaway had a good segement on reviving civics education last week: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/did-lack-civics-educati on-play-part-insurrection
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permalink #181 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:48
permalink #181 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 14:48
When the hype has been going for years, it's easy to be cynical. Speaking of ongoing hype, it's now been more than a decade since Google first announced they're working on driverless cars. I remember some Google technologist talking about how they hoped their kid would never need to learn to drive, and I think that kid might have graduated from college by now? Waymo is still plugging away, though. Maybe they'll expand to more regions this year, but I doubt it. --- It seems like there are contrasting ways to think about crashes and that has something with patience versus impatience. From a financial perspective, crashes are pretty bad! People lose money! It's bad publicity! There are layoffs! Your stock might get delisted. After you crash, the game is over, or at least too boring to want to continue. Time to find a new game. (And similarly, if you don't get out of the pump-and-dump scheme on time, you're left holding the bag.) But the other way to think about crashes is like a virus would "think" about them. Viruses don't care about market share or publicity. From an evolutionary perspective, a wave can crash but the virus can keep coming back. Viruses don't get bored. Sometimes crypto people talk about survival like a virus. Everyone who didn't diversify could lose lots of money but the blockchain will continue, and this is somehow important. The environmental footprint will shrink and transaction costs will be low again, and maybe the remaining die hards will go back to using it to trade World of Warcraft cards? Blockchains depend on civilization (electricity and network connectivity) and on Internet geeks continuing to be interested enough to run the servers. But not everything on the Internet dies. Sometimes it becomes retro, and this is separate from mainstream people talking about it. It could keep going when most people are saying "oh them, are they still around?" Sort of like the Well. The hype is not about bare survival though, it's about mainstream adoption and transformative change. (And speaking of the long term, what's the Long Now Foundation up to lately?)
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permalink #182 of 468: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:13
permalink #182 of 468: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:13
Thanks for that moxie.org link, Brian. Very interesting.
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permalink #183 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:43
permalink #183 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:43
Glad you liked it! (Previously posted in <132> but worth reposting.)
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permalink #184 of 468: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:49
permalink #184 of 468: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:49
There's a lot going on in this topic, so I appreciate the second chance.
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permalink #185 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:55
permalink #185 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Sat 8 Jan 22 15:55
> When the hype has been going for years, it's easy to be cynical. Furthermore, quite some time ago we reached the point where admitting that one's product incorporated blockchain technology could trigger a significant backlash from a now widely misinformed public. Remember "Blockchain Ice Tea?"
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permalink #186 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:01
permalink #186 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:01
Virus is a pretty good analogy for boom-bust capitalism.
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permalink #187 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:20
permalink #187 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:20
Agreed. And Brian, thanks for the bit about "Scissor Labels" -- that's another good argument against "binary thinking" -- but how, oh how will humans ever get past that? I mean, we basically have a brain region devoted to the making of life-prolonging binary choices ('snap judgments'): friend or foe, fight or flight, etc., operating just below conscious awareness.
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permalink #188 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:38
permalink #188 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Sat 8 Jan 22 16:38
Binary thinking is essential to language, in the sense that you choose to use a word or you dont. (Though you can add qualifiers.) I think, though, the idea that you can use tools for unintended ends helps a bit? Ill refer you to David Chapman, my favorite anti-philosopher: <https://metarationality.com/purpose-of-meaning> > We use words as tools to get things done; and to get things done, we improvise, making use of whatever materials are ready to hand. If you want to whack a piece of sheet metal to bend it, and dont know or care what the right tool is (if there even is one), you might take a quick look around the garage, grab a large screwdriver at the wrong end, and hit the target with its hard rubber handle. A hand tool may have one or two standard uses; some less common but pretty obvious ones; and unusual, creative ones. But these are not clearly distinct categories of usage. > Words go the same way. Almost any word can be used to mean almost anything, in some context. You could play this as a challenge game How about The eggplant is a straw hat, and the spinach is yelling about politics? > Were in the kitchen of a vegetarian restaurant. A tables entrees are ready, and the server who took the order is explaining to the one who will deliver the meal which diner gets which dish. One customers flamboyant straw hat is a salient, unambiguously identifying feature; you can see it all the way across the room. The other probably needs to turn up a hearing aid; you can hear their opinions about cultural appropriation all the way across the room.
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permalink #189 of 468: Tiffany Lee Brown (T) (magdalen) Sat 8 Jan 22 18:57
permalink #189 of 468: Tiffany Lee Brown (T) (magdalen) Sat 8 Jan 22 18:57
> In my Queens classroom, we even had a lesson one day on how to > navigate the different sections of a newspaper and read a newspaper > article. I wonder if anyone still does that. yes, some do. i highly recommend the News Literacy Project's email newsletter for keeping abreast of things. https://newslit.org/ even if one is not a journalist or educator.
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permalink #190 of 468: Patrick Lichty (plichty1) Sat 8 Jan 22 21:16
permalink #190 of 468: Patrick Lichty (plichty1) Sat 8 Jan 22 21:16
The Metaverse: WTF is it? Sure, I'm being a bit flip on this one, but the idea is that I feel like this is Wild Palms 3.0. For those of you who aren't hoary cyberheads, I'm basically talking about the days of the Virtual Paradise radio cast (which was made at the Cyberthon in SF in 1990, but I got the tape on something like 93...). It had Jaron Lanier, Terrence McKenna, and my friend Brenda Laurel speculating about this thing called VR. TV shows like Wild Palms, VR5, and Longo's movie Johnny Mnemonic speculated on VR becoming the new alternate world for everything - social, commerce, intrigue. Longo's Mnemonic actually showed a halfway interesting 3D internet that I feel could be "metaverse-y" in the Stephenson/Snowcrash sort of thing (where the word came from). I'm rambling a cloud of cultural points to signify the excitement that was going on regarding VR just before the Web. But VR was expensive, required coding, was so.... Different. Then came the Web. You could just type in an address, and stuff would come up. So, Metaverse 1.0 died. Sure, other virtual worlds like LambdaMOO and Active Worlds came around, but not until in the early 2000's no 3D platform had.... commerce hooked to it. Enter Second Life (someplace, btw, I'm still on). The second life where you could do whatever you want, with abstracted cash (Linden Dollars)... Playboy, American Apparel, Domino's Pizza, even WalMart was out there, along with great institutions like ZKM Karlsruhe and Ars Electronica out there. Business Week featured "Anshe Chung", the world's first "Virtual Real Estate Millionaire". Artists like Eva and franco Mattes, Second Front, and Cao Fei (who showed her remake of Beijing at Serpentine Gallery, arguably one of the world's leading)made groundbreaking work ... There was a boom, and promises of the Metaverse were rife. However, SL had its growing pains, like a weak infrastructure, its libertaian atmosphere allowing Ponzi schemes and "ageplay" (which got shut down after the Netherlands got involved). Eventually, the FOMO that companies had from SL's hype led to commerce leaving as people just didn't wan t to get a Meat Lover;s Pizaa in an SL Domino's. Issue was that HTTP was a standard, not a company. Linden Labs wasn't prepared to become the 3D web, and SL had too high of a learning curve for the average user, and to this day, the commercial sector voices schadenfreude whenever SL (which still has a 30,000 constant login according to Wagner James Au) shows any hint of trouble. The private sector still smarts from its affair with SL. Technically RIP Metaverse 2.0. Enter Web3, Metaverse 3.0, the Meta "Mother of all Demos", in which Zuck riffs laurie Anderson's axiom from her Puppet Motel project, "Heaven is just like where you are right now, but MUCH MUCH better". In the Facebook/Meta demo, Zuck picks an ideal for for his avatar - Him. What seems to be Metaverse 3.0 is a set of virtual environments bound by the Blockchain, which allows owneership/commerce. This has been the bugaboo of the virtual ever since Walter Benjamin's 1918(?) essay where he talks about the devalusing of things through reproduction. Tewo things that are disturbing about Metaverse 3.0 - it does not seem to have any coherence. There's no Second Life for this new social media bound by crypto. You have to hang out on Twitter and find Discords that know these things. The Metaverse hype seems to be a whole bunch of (maybe) connected VR apps. However, apps often do not share blockchains,a nd it just seems to be speculation and island territories. Using the telephone system as a metaphor, things seem light at best. I remember seeing the Walmart experience, seemed lonely, with a virtual assistant helping you through you shopping in a near-empty room. Moral of the story is that I feel like I've seen this before, and if you consider Advertising mogul Ogilvy saing to make reality interesting... What will be different? I WONDER.
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permalink #191 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Sat 8 Jan 22 22:53
permalink #191 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Sat 8 Jan 22 22:53
eh yup
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permalink #192 of 468: Inky fingers (ianb) Sun 9 Jan 22 01:34
permalink #192 of 468: Inky fingers (ianb) Sun 9 Jan 22 01:34
See, I hear a phrase like "all the underutilize compute resources in the world, cheaply recruitable to your problem" and hear "massive increase in power usage, with an incentive to move that power to countries which have abundant supplies of fossil fuels owing to the rising cost of energy elsewhere." As <bruces> pointed out elsewhere, when Kazakhstan went offline briefly, 12% of the world's Bitcoin mining vanished. Energy is dirt cheap there, because Kazakhstan sits on huge reserves of oil and coal, and 75% of its power is generated from those sources (the rest by natural gas, which is an improvement over oil and coal, but not carbon neutral by any means).
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permalink #193 of 468: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Sun 9 Jan 22 01:44
permalink #193 of 468: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Sun 9 Jan 22 01:44
70% of Kazakhstan's electricity is made by burning coal. In old, dirty plants that are cheap to run.
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permalink #194 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:05
permalink #194 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:05
Inky Fingers: it's a lot less environmentally damaging to do your computing on a computer which already exists. If you have to buy a computer, then do the compute, then leave it idle when you're done? Vastly more damaging. We need to use what we have, whatever it is, as efficiently as possible. Environmentally we have not invested in *profitable efficiencies* like home insulation. Don't expect people to make big lifestyle sacrifices if they won't even pick up the free money lying on the ground in things like insulating homes.
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permalink #195 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:19
permalink #195 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:19
Blockchain "Decentralized Autonomous Organizations" interest me a lot. They kinda do to venture capital firms what social media does to newspapers. They're also really a lot like 18th-century coffeeshops before corporations were invented -- it's all about buzz and personal connections, rather than anything like "due diligence." Before there was any such thing as "crony capitalism," there were just the cronies -- guys you'd literally have a cup of coffee with. They didn't have titles, "Chief Technical Officer," "head of marketing," none of that -- they were just influencers. Our understanding of history leads us to think that this is behind us, but it may be ahead of us. If you were a Soviet Marxist scholar, you'd be hard put to imagine that the arc of history is aimed directly at a de-facto Czar and a private oligarchic clique of spies and profiteers. But the USSR collapsed thirty years ago, while the Putin oligarchy thing is pretty long-in-the-tooth. Putin's reign is as old as the 21st century. He used to be a dynamic fireball of guy, doing karate, riding horses bareback; now he seems to be tiring, like Brezhnev, pulling all the windows shut in his society and declaring darkness the standard.
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permalink #196 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:22
permalink #196 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:22
The Russian media seems to have the Kazakhstan situation figured for a failed, pro-Western "Color Revolution." They may be right, but in the old days, there was something Western to be pro about -- and also, the wannabe revolutionaries at least had it together enough to be able to pick out a color.
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permalink #197 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:23
permalink #197 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:23
Right, second Technical Bit: hashcash. Hashcash is where all the pain enters the bitcoin system. It's the foundation of proof of work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash <- this is where the energy consumption happens. Before we mentioned hash functions: drop in a piece of data, and get a unique identification number back. 7845d0d110f8938de54c4f0637ed6c6a1b517000 for example. Try it here: https://xorbin.com/tools/sha1-hash-calculator type in some text, calculate a hash. Now try and find two items with the same first letter: it'll take you 16 tries on average. First two letters? 256 tries. Three letters? 4096 tries, and so on. A good cryptographic hash has no shortcuts: if you want two things to match you just have to go and try things until you get a hit, there are no shortcuts. However, if somebody claims that "love" hashes to the same value as "will" (93 using a slightly older gematria hash algorithm) you can easily verify the claim by hashing the two values yourself and checking that they match. The asymmetry is key: it takes a long time to find things that hash to similar values, but it is very fast to check when somebody claims that two things have similar values. What this means is that you can present me with evidence of computational effort in a challenge-response system. Here's how that works. 1) I present you with a random string "asldjasf;ljkasdf" and say "find me a match to this string for the first eight characters of the hash." 2) You then have to go and do a bunch of computation to find something with that partial match. 3) You show me the string you've found: "ejejsjsidks" and I check its hash against my hash. If they match, you have passed my challenge. This asymmetry of effort is going to come up when we talk about bitcoin mining. I'll post about that a little later. But the core concept is: cheap for me to challenge you, and as expensive as I want it to be for you to pass that challenge. There are very few things in computer science which have this kind of asymmetry of effort. These are special, useful, powerful situations. In cryptography things with this asymmetry of effort are called often called trapdoor functions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapdoor_function Asymmetry of effort is critical. This is another thing you should *completely understand* if you want to have a solid opinion on Web3 - it's as fundamental a building block as understanding M0, M1, M2 money supply if you want to talk about US inflation rates. You don't need to read the code, but if you don't have the building blocks it's almost impossible to have an informed opinion on things like the proof-of-work / proof-of-stake divide: "killing hashcash" is another name for that struggle. I'll post about that shortly.
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permalink #198 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:32
permalink #198 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Sun 9 Jan 22 02:32
And, yes, very weird to me that *choices of algorithms to secure technical systems* are now bringing down countries by destroying their power grids and internet access. Not something I would have foreseen. I think we could safely classify that as a bug that should be reported.
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permalink #199 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Sun 9 Jan 22 03:31
permalink #199 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Sun 9 Jan 22 03:31
Via email from George Mokray: Years ago I encountered Buddhist logic: yes no not yes not no neither yes nor no both yes and no Then I began using them as answers for polls on Dailykos and found that two more were demanded by readers: dont understand the question? none of the above That should get you out of the strict binary rut, a symptom of an addictive system, according to Anne Wilson Schaef by the way. Ive also found that truth is a word I dont like to use as it is so dependent upon point of view. I know a carpenters truth, when something is straight, level and plumb; but when talking about people, it is highly unlikely that all those dimensions will align. I check and recheck my sources and try not to get stampeded, which seems to be the basic idea of news media in these days of the society of the spectacle.
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permalink #200 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Sun 9 Jan 22 03:31
permalink #200 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Sun 9 Jan 22 03:31
Via email from George Mokray: Witness to a Century: George Seldes https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/19/663606/- The Jungle of Journalism: Upton Sinclair on the Press https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/11/15/271728/-
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