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permalink #301 of 468: Type A: The only type that counts! (doctorow) Wed 12 Jan 22 08:10
permalink #301 of 468: Type A: The only type that counts! (doctorow) Wed 12 Jan 22 08:10
@bruces 260: "I could probably rustle up a Covid vaccination somewhere outside the European Union, but it wouldn't help me much in my bureaucratic daily life in Europe; if a European health system didn't give it to me, they wouldn't be able to count it. Although coronavirus drifts aross borders with great speed and ease, health data doesn't, and won't. Global medical cooperation is vastly *worse* than it was when the global pandemic started." It's actually better, but weirder, than that. In France, you can get your California covid QR converted into an EU QR for 50 euros at a pharmacy. Same in Germany, but I think it's 30 EUR. If you have a QR from Washington state or a few other US states that embraced an international standard, you can just use your QR in the EU. UK passes work in the EU, too. Some EU countries, like .pl and .nl, won't recognize US proof of vax - either the card or the QR - but they WILL recognize a US-to-EU proof of vax that you get in Germany or France. In Poland, the restaurateurs I encountered looked at my paper CDC covid card and shrugged and admitted me (but I was in Katowice for a UN conference, so there were a lot of foreign proof-of-vax credentials being presented). In the Netherlands, I had to book and take a free LFT/antigen test every day, results from which included a GUID that I could enter into the Dutch covid pass app and get a 24h QR code.
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permalink #302 of 468: QR eye (doctorow) Wed 12 Jan 22 08:16
permalink #302 of 468: QR eye (doctorow) Wed 12 Jan 22 08:16
@bruces 261 "If I lack this QR code validation -- my phone got wet, for instance -- then I'm in trouble; I become unvaccinated underclass and a visible health risk." Again, not quite right. Your Green Pass is delivered as a paper QR code that you scan into your national QR pass app, which then generates a(nother?) QR code you can present by showing your phone instead of the paper. But you can present the paper one, or a photo of it. When my fam was in France, we each took pictures of the others' paper QRs and kept them on our phones in case someone had a tech problem, we could present their credential for them.
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permalink #303 of 468: Jamais Cascio (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:48
permalink #303 of 468: Jamais Cascio (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:48
Via email from Jamais Cascio: Hi folks Good to see so many old friends and colleagues here. Im glad were all still fighting to understand whats going on, and fighting to hold on to whats worth saving. Its hard to keep that fighting spirit going, sometimes. I spoke in Kazakhstan about a decade ago. At the time, Nazarbayev was still President, and the cult of personality was overpowering: a bronze pillar with his handprint at the peak of the Baytarek tower in the center of Astana; paintings of him everywhere, looking lovingly at his people; young translators/guides/watchers gushing about how the President is such a genius and he even wrote our national anthem! That, and the underside of the cars we were shuttled around in being checked for bombs every time we entered or exited a parking lot. Its not all that surprising to me that theres growing unrest there. An impoverished population, living with infrastructure (outside the big city) looking like it was stuck in the aftermath of a regional war, while the leadership had increasingly gaudy structures buildings and monuments filling the capital. An economy based on extraction of raw materials that were already rapidly losing value. Atop all of this was an environment that was little-cared-for: at the largest scale, the disappearance of the Aral Sea; at the smallest, the casual way the translators/guides would toss garbage out the car window as we toured the countryside. The only surprise to me was that the unrest took this long to emerge. I havent been following the discussion this year as closely in years past. Not because of the content or participants I have enormous respect and admiration of so many of you here but because the state of the world is so deeply depressing. The work that I do is drowning in the reality of collapsing systems. Still, as noted above, we keep fighting to hold on to whats worth saving. Thank you for that. -Jamais
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permalink #304 of 468: fruitbagpangolin (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:50
permalink #304 of 468: fruitbagpangolin (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:50
Via email from fruitbatpangolin: The viewing of Sneakers following the recent death of Sydney Poitier after the deep state finally hunted him down at the young age of 94, has taken longer than I anticipated. Largely due to a massive landlady incursion within the venue chosen, powered demonically by her exuberant consumption of some 21st century street modern nightmare fuel consisting, apparently, of hard spirits, valium, cheap wine, and weak ketamine. That situation is now largely quelled. Primarily due to the efforts of a friend, an expert in the role of idiot-whisperer. And the rescreening of Sneakers went well. Now what have I missed here? *scans thread* *slips into NBC suit, carefully checking every seal* Soooo. Nuclear: I heartily agree with both Michael Bravo, and Vinay Gupta. Vinay reminded me, with his 'worst idea I have ever had', of a conversation I had years ago with someone from the US Navy. Basically, the US Navy are the only organisation I have ever heard of that deals with its own nuclear power reactors in a way that is anything close to that which you would like to expect from a civilian municipal nuclear power generation supplier. Possibly because they have a habit of living on them, whilst out at sea. I suggested that, because of this, it might be a good thing if the US Navy militarily seceded itself, from the United States, and then set itself up as an international NGO, finally free from all that troublesome Washington interference, free to go sail the high seas, provide nuclear power generation to all, and shoot at anyone who comes near it. I was expecting some pushback on this, but given the suprisingly enthusiastic response I got to the suggestion, I'm not sure it would be that difficult to pull off. The other branches might get a bit annoyed. The essential problem is that whatever the real risks may or may not be, politics is not engineering. You cannot utilise something as baseload power for a global energy technology problem, that you are not also publicly willing to allow any geopolitical adversaries to use. Lithium and silicon are hyperabundant and simply do not carry the same political risk. Though I'd like to see mini self-regulating molten salt reactors built into floating arcology skyscraper basements. From experience, the problem with nuclear power is not the technology, it is the current culture of the industry, combined with the weapons politics. Wanna use nulcear? solve those. Biological: Lets all sing the doom song ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw_cdqQHGA8 ) The anthropocene is still accelerating <https://www.bimco.org/news/market_analysis/2021/20210601_dry_bulk_shipping>, and if you ignore the PR and concentrate on the numbers, quite frankly my dear, we're fucked. The climate curve is consistently topping the worst of the IPCC expectations, which means, at least quite likely, that we are on a very different, and sharper curve, to the worst of the IPCC projections. Things that my dad thinks are worrying, but still thinks will take centuries, may take decades. And if that happens, without some kind of explosion in personal fremen-tech, billions are going to have to move rather quickly. From that perspective, the current destabilising fall of the US and the UK may actually help in this regard. Chemical: Chemistry is our best bet at a technical out, from a current engineering and politics standpoint. Our batteries and solar panels might not be perfect, but nothing is, and if you run out of lithium and silicon, you get a special award from the Galactic High Council for ingenious stupidity. Also, if lines of communication and geography can be suitably organised, up for that drink with <loris>.
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permalink #305 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:59
permalink #305 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 12 Jan 22 09:59
ah, thanks <fruitbatpangolin>. i live rural santa cruz county, USA (nothing really matters but the view of monterey bay is great). what is 'frementech'?
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permalink #306 of 468: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 12 Jan 22 10:21
permalink #306 of 468: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 12 Jan 22 10:21
I would guess "frementech" is a reference to the technology, such as still-suits and crysknives, used by the Fremen people in the Dune universe.
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permalink #307 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 12 Jan 22 11:07
permalink #307 of 468: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 12 Jan 22 11:07
ah, not a dune fellow traveler. i thought this protocol article on crypto communists was useful: https://www.protocol.com/fintech/crypto-communists
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permalink #308 of 468: Tiffany Lee Brown (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:10
permalink #308 of 468: Tiffany Lee Brown (jonl) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:10
Tiffany suggested that we post a link to this article by my pal Ethan Zuckerman, in the Atlantic: <https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/10/facebook-metaverse-was- always-terrible/620546/> It's about creating a text-based metaverse back in the day, using a technology called MOO, for "multiuser object-oriented" virtual reality. We did something similar here in Austin, creating a MOO for a LAN demonstration set up by EFF-Austin for Robofest Austin back in the 90s, instigated by Doug Barnes. Doug was a systems administrator back then; since then, he became a tech-focused attorney based in New York. The LAN was set up with computers and much help from Steve Jackson Games. Steve was so excited about the gaming potential of the MOO that he made it a subscription service, and attached it to Illuminati Online or io.com, which was one of the earliest commercial ISPs. The MOO was a cool environment - we built a FringeWare building in it. I recall that there was a text-based marker you could sniff, and it would make you virtually high. Probably more interesting than anything Facebook will come up with - but it didn't survive, though io.com succeeded for a long time as an ISP. From Ethan's piece: "The MOO was really cool, in theory. Most people werent building HTML-enabled multiplayer spaces in 1995. It got us our first round of venture-capital funding, demonstrating to our investors that we werent just kids translating mutual-fund propaganda into HTML. We were technology innovators. We were building things no one had ever seen before. "But heres the thing: The MOO was garbage. On a good day, I could give a demo that made it look smooth, slick, and fun to use. But our CEO couldnt. And that was a problem. It wasnt his fault. The MOO was buggy and quirky and demanded that you think of the world as a set of six-sided cubes made up of webpages. Our boss pulled the plug on the project, telling us, 'I know its the future, but if I cant use it, I cant sell it to investors.'"
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permalink #309 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:43
permalink #309 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:43
If you're interested text game nostalgia you might take a look at the "Fifty Years of Text Games" substack. The author's gimmick is that he reviewed one text game for each year between 1971 and 2020: <https://if50.substack.com/archive?sort=new> He's writing a book, but made the archives free for a week. (It's been more than a week, but it seems he hasn't turned the paywall back on yet.)
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permalink #310 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:58
permalink #310 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 12:58
Banning video game *companies* isn't quite the same as banning games. I don't know anything about the scene in China, but there are plenty of open source game projects out there, built as labors of love. They are overshadowed by commercial games, but if the commercial games went away, they'd probably get a lot more interest. I wonder if we'll see more of those sort of games from China? Maybe some "lying flat" people might decide to get into programming in their copious spare time? The laid off game developers could help them get them started.
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permalink #311 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:13
permalink #311 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:13
China also cracked down on tutoring companies this year: <https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1008838/chinas-tutoring-ban-leaves-a-trail-of-d ebt%2C-anger%2C-and-broken-dreams> > The Chinese government launched a severe clampdown on private tutoring, blaming the industry for fueling an unhealthy educational rat race. Academic classes on weekends and holidays were banned. Education firms were prevented from opening new centers or raising capital. From January 2022, all for-profit academic tutoring would be outlawed. This is terrible for the teachers, but I expect that studying for exams will continue?
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permalink #312 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:23
permalink #312 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:23
From a social science point of view, the heavy-handed ban on for-profit tutoring seems like an unusual natural experiment. Should we expect that the Chinese public will be less educated without the for-profit tutoring companies, and how could anyone tell?
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permalink #313 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:31
permalink #313 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 12 Jan 22 13:31
Meanwhile, it's another good year for California state budgets: <https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-12/with-gusher-of-tax-revenue s-gavin-newsom-politics-of-plenty-california-budget?_amp=true> > Newsoms more than $286-billion budget proposal for 2022-23, unveiled Monday, follows the unconventional model that has become a hallmark of his governing style and drawn some criticism bucking the approach of his predecessors, who narrowed their focus to a few signature policies. Instead, the 54-year-old Democrat has become a governor who swings at every pitch, as he often describes the critique of his wide-ranging agenda. > His plan includes a mix of high-profile proposals sure to grab attention, such as the expansion of Medi-Cal eligibility to all immigrants and a call for the state to manufacture insulin, and others to more quietly bolster the safety net and chip away at Californias problems. > The governor is proposing $1.2 billion over two years for forest health and fire prevention and suggests offering incentives for developers to build housing in downtown areas, in hopes of discouraging the kind of suburban sprawl into forests that has put new homes in the path of wildfires. You'd think we'd be happier in California, with a mostly-unified government and plenty of money? Instead we worry about the federal level.
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permalink #314 of 468: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Wed 12 Jan 22 14:10
permalink #314 of 468: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Wed 12 Jan 22 14:10
<292> seriously misrepresents US socio/political/economic history since World War II. US workers lost much of what they'd gained since the establishment of the New Deal because purveyors of the neoliberal consensus gained power and cut taxes. This created a powerful oligarchy that now can use huge campaign donations to protect their wealth at the expense of the rest of the populace.
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permalink #315 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 04:43
permalink #315 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 04:43
I'm spending most of the day managing my biopolitical QR codes so as to fly from Italy to Spain. Normally I tote around four different speckled squares just to clear through through airports, but for this trip I've got two duplicates of one, and I don't need to seem one of the other. If I were as clever as Cory Doctorow, I'd master all the thorny details and hack my travel situations much better, but, alas, I'm indolent. Also, if you excel at swift compliance, it just encourages them. Before the pandemic a trip from Turin to Ibiza was a spontaneous weekend jaunt. Before 9/11 you could haul a toolbox. Here's a cynical guide to making money in the NFT racket without having to swallow any of the koolaid. It's written entirely in NFT jargon, and in a handy listicle form. https://mirror.xyz/nnimrodd.eth/s4gU0NnIEFBnM0wKcCXyWAcyNHl94ooLCs5RHWdnBiY "Never get attached to a pfptheyre just a bunch of traits. "Ignore a pfp project if all animals look the same. "List everything at 2 ETH above floor. Sell and buy the floor again, in perpetuity. "Never de-list, unless its to re-list at a higher price. Listed items are less likely to get stolen...."
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permalink #316 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 05:11
permalink #316 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 05:11
*In surveillance capitalism, "you are the product"; in Web3, you're the "exit liquidity."
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permalink #317 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 13 Jan 22 07:20
permalink #317 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 13 Jan 22 07:20
Hello, Jamais. Thanks for that note. Honestly, when jonl asked me if I wanted to be a SOTW guest this year, I told him I was on as much of a news hiatus as possible for a working journalist. The gears haven't completely stopped turning though, it seems. Vinay, I know this is primarily a thought experiment. Black humor and irony are perfectly reasonable responses to the current state of the world not that anyone needs my approval. For myself, I don't have it in me lately to be glib about how much mortality needs to happen before it's worth getting my mind out of bed. Frankly it's a sad regression to my mindset in my 20s, when I was working for PIRG and Greenpeace and everything was So Very Serious. Maybe I'll snap out of it (again) someday. "Once you put civil war on the table as the possible outcome of *not* letting the Red States have a lot more control of their destinies, the minor aggravations of relocating a lot of people become a lot more acceptable." Maybe it'd be cheaper than war, but that's never stopped the U.S. from going to war before. White supremacy is a fundamentally unreasonable belief system. White panic is based on such extreme bigotry that it leads people to deny themselves economic and social well being just to avoid sharing it with non-whites. If these millions of racists were still paying taxes to the federal government, and that money could end up benefiting Black, Hispanic, Latino, Indigenous, Jewish or Muslim or LGBTQ or etc. objectionable people, most still wouldn't be appeased by moving "those people" a few states away. There's no reason to assume that "blue state" Republicans are benign, either: Chris Christie may have seemed pretty good, but that's only by comparison to the Greg Abbots and Ron DeSantises. Maine's recent former governor, climate denier and bigot Paul LePage, now calls himself "Trump before Trump." In a scenario like Maine's, where Democrat Janet Miller is now the governor, would we move all the relocated Mainers back to Maine? Would the Republicans then be discharged from the state?
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permalink #318 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 13 Jan 22 08:23
permalink #318 of 468: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 13 Jan 22 08:23
Instead of assuming civil war we could talk about an increase in violence and what forms it could take. It's not clear that angry Americans are ready to be or to support guerillas? Gangs are sometimes a thing. There was the ritual violence of protesters versus the police in Portland. January 6 was among other things a sort of imitation of a protest. Many people on both sides seemed to be expecting things to go the way protests usually go, and were surprised when it didn't. Meanwhile there is the stochastic violence of loners that we see in school shootings and the like. There seems to be precedent for American acceptance and tolerance of higher levels of violence without society breaking down? Consider bombings in the 1970's and the drug war.
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permalink #319 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 13 Jan 22 08:46
permalink #319 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 13 Jan 22 08:46
The 2022 and 2024 elections in the USA could be breaking points, or at least points where protest and violence accelerate. Regardless who wins those elections, there'll be trouble. Currently, it appears that the Republicans are seizing the elections apparatus so that they can direct the results of the election, and if they appear to be deciding the elections regardless of the actual vote counts, I expect an explosive reaction. Though if Republicans have partisans running the elections, in the unlikely event that Democrats appear to win, I'm not clear how they can protest, other than in states where the elections continue to be run by bipartisans.
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permalink #320 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:10
permalink #320 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:10
*So, you're Chinese Big Tech, and you like cool surveillance algorithms that transform your users into the product? Too bad! The Party won't allow those for ethical reasons: they cause users to become addicted or spend too much. *Xi Jinping has got the only computer-ethics scheme that has teeth. It's Xi Jinping Thought ethics with vaguely Confucian "Market-Leninist" characteristics, but he doesn't kid around about it when it comes to making the subjects bend the knee. https://mailchi.mp/a2255ec01dff/un-effort-to-ban-killer-robots-falls-short-chi na-to-impose-restrictions-on-algorithms-and-intel-lands-in-hot-water-over-xinj iang-reference?e=c54d18d20f China Rolls Out New Algorithm Rules: Last week, Chinese regulators finalized new rules on the use of algorithmic recommendation systems. The regulations (translation available here), which were proposed last August, place significant limits on the tech companies content recommendation algorithms and give users the ability to opt out or limit their use of the systems. The new law, set to go into effect on March 1, will: Require companies to display information about how the algorithms work and their intended purpose. Give users the ability to opt out of using algorithmic recommendation systems entirely, opt out of personalized recommendation systems specifically, or delete personalized tags used by algorithms to make individual recommendations. Place limits on models that cause users to become addicted or spend too much. Bar algorithms that generate or synthesize fake news information, (a new addition since the draft regulations).
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permalink #321 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:15
permalink #321 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:15
Emily: "I don't get out of bed for less than 1% mortality" was literally *printed on my business cards* for years when I was doing worst case scenarios work. Mordant sense of humor, yes, but it was also literally true - I did not work on scenarios which weren't going to kill at least 80 million people, or 1% of the country they happened in, generally. That's given me a certain perspective. Working directly with mortality at scale - "if you want to know the truth, count the bodies in the morgues - and in the streets" - is a brutal practice. But it grounds us in reality, the certainty of death (and taxes) more than almost any other way of knowing the truth: can be depressing as hell, or can be liberating. To fight death is futile, at least for a while longer, but to *know* death is bountiful and creative. Life-death chiaroscuro. As a failed state guy, a former planner, I am *grimly afraid* about what I see in America. I'm trying to sensitize people to a "Yugoslavia scenario" possibility: Capitalism starts to collapse as Communism once did and a civil war follows. I am afraid. And when I am afraid, everybody should be afraid. I startle easily - I'm very risk-aware, risk-alert - but very little genuinely frightens me. American civil war genuinely frightens me. https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-takeover-us-military
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permalink #322 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:23
permalink #322 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Thu 13 Jan 22 09:23
So what I'm proposing, if it happened in another country, a place which was not America - we would be talking about ideas like "autonomous regions". Texas Autonomous Region? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autonomous_areas_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_administrative_division There has to be something between full federalization - only 100 years old (1913) and civil war. There HAS TO BE.
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permalink #323 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Thu 13 Jan 22 10:18
permalink #323 of 468: George Mokray (jonl) Thu 13 Jan 22 10:18
Via email from George Mokray: bruces: Kazakhstan's Chamber of Entrepreneurs Sounds a lot like Jack London's Board of Industrial Magnates from both The Iron Heel and, in passing, The Scarlet Plague where the census of 2010 gave eight billions for the whole world and it was in the summer of 2013 that the Plague came . From the moment of the first signs of it, a man would be dead in an hour. Some lasted for several hours. Many died within ten or fifteen minutes or the appearance of the first signs All this In the midst of a civilization, ruled by said Board of Industrial Magnates, in which "down in our slums and labor-ghettos, we had bred a race of barbarians, of savages; and now, in the time of our calamity, they turned upon us like the wild beasts they were and destroyed us. And they destroyed themselves as well ...." fruitbatpangolin: some kind of explosion in personal fremen-tech Screw the jetpack. With wet bulb heat death and polar vortex freezing death, I want my stilsuit STAT! The Chinese crackdown on gaming and independent tutoring is probably less about dumbing down and "idleness" than it is about fencing off what is acceptable and what is not. What will they use to replace these activities and how are they expecting to shape the minds that use those substitutes? Perhaps theyve actually learned from our experiments in meritocracy, planning a softer cultural revolution, or maybe it's just plastering over another oligarchy.
>jonl: Republicans are seizing the elections apparatus so that they can direct the results of the election, and if they appear to be deciding the elections regardless of the actual vote counts, I expect an explosive reaction I agree. I also think it highly likely that Dems will prevail by such margins that the fixes the Pugs have put in place will be insufficient to deny them. The Blutocrats will again stage a nutty, but this time we'll be waiting for them. I read today that there may be a procedural circumnavigation of the filibuster perplex to get voting protections passed with a simple majority, or at least bring it to the floor and force the Pugs to argue against it in CSPAN soundbites for the midterm campaign. I remain confident that the Republic is secure and that the Republicans are delaminating. I still think crediting this "movement" with the status of existential threat is a media confection we will all be studiously ignoring that we once took seriously a few years hence.
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permalink #325 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 13 Jan 22 14:54
permalink #325 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Thu 13 Jan 22 14:54
I suspect we're equally afraid, Vinay. I've been astonished for decades at the lack of attention to the radical right, whether out of ignorance (mainstream news media for the longest time) or political cynicism (see the Bush II-era FBI deeming "ecoterrorists" the greatest domestic terrorism threat in the nation). I mean, what did it signify if a few women got screamed at outside abortion clinics, or a few clinics got bombed, or an occasional doctor assassinated? The Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing was terrible but that was just one guy, right? Ruby Ridge well, that guy was NUTS and a woman was the AG at the time amirite? I don't claim to be special, I don't know why this stuff mattered to me even though I lived in East Coast liberal bastions until I was 27, working at bookstores and Big Green groups. Then I moved to Oregon's liberal bastions for nine years. However, one didn't need to travel too far out of the Portland or Eugene metro core areas to start running into a lot of people who thought Tim McVeigh was a hero, and think now that the Bundys are Paul Reveres reborn. They're the mainstream in eastern Oregon, where most people want to secede and become part of Idaho. I don't know where most of the southern Oregonians want to secede to, being surrounded by crazy California to the south and wacky central-western Oregon to the north. But there are comic book "militas" there waiting for the war to start. They kinda hoped it would start when they started "patrolling" little towns in summer 2020 against the approaching Antifa hordes. This type of faction, being naturally distrustful (although also pro-conformity), was easier to ignore before the advent of the popular Internet and addictive social media. Now they've been mass-weaponized.
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