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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #401 of 578: Drew Trott (druid) Sat 9 Nov 24 00:45
permalink #401 of 578: Drew Trott (druid) Sat 9 Nov 24 00:45
> the Dems would have to admit that the government is often a > behemoth of bureaucratic nonsense It is? It is bureaucratic, certainly. Regulatory agencies -- bureaus, if you like -- are how policies get carried into action. But I don't get the nonsense part. Certainly mistakes are made. And the reason something works a certain way may not be obvious. Some things may be downright stupid. But the same is true of all collective human enterprises.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #402 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 07:49
permalink #402 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 07:49
Thanks for sharing that about Sen. Rosen Angie. Now I dont regret the time I spent in Reno. Im scrambling to get a tin roof refurbished before the rain, and Id be done, and on to the next project if Id skipped canvassing. I love Jackie Rosen ever since she went after Louis DeJoy. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcNS1FmeHbM>
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #403 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 9 Nov 24 08:56
permalink #403 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 9 Nov 24 08:56
Yes, great news about Sen. Rosen. There are things to be learned from how the Democrats have had significantly better outcomes at the local levels (federal senators and representatives) than Harris/Walz did nationwide. Who's going to put the time and effort into learning them, though? My head is just spinning with the post-election "I told you sos." I mean, if this many people with the ability or inroads to have an impact knew what it was going to take for Harris to win, why were they waiting until after she lost to explain it? Bernie Sanders has been in the Senate for two decades. What's he got to show for it? I am tired of center-leftward activists and intelligentsia mansplaining what the problems are, without following that up with tangible potential solutions, and wading in to the muck to try them out.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #404 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 9 Nov 24 10:22
permalink #404 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sat 9 Nov 24 10:22
All that said, the most persuasive analyses I've read so far are not about what Democrats should have done, but about how and where people got their information. I'll post a couple excerpts below. I remain torn about how much responsibility to put on voters as individuals, vs. how much to put on the tiny group of ultra-wealthy men who control social media combined with the politicians and politicos who let them get away with that: Heather Cox Richardson: "[Amanda] Marcotte [in Salon] recalled that Catherine Rampell and Youyou Zhou of the Washington Post showed before the election that voters overwhelmingly preferred Harriss policies to Trumps if they didnt know which candidate proposed them. An Ipsos/Reuters poll from October showed that voters who were misinformed about immigration, crime, and the economy tended to vote Republican, while those who knew the facts preferred Democrats. Many Americans turn for information to social media or to friends and family who traffic in conspiracy theories. As Angelo Carusone of Media Matters put it: 'We have a country that is pickled in right-wing misinformation and rage.'" Jill Lepore, in her latest New Yorker article The Artificial State: "The artificial state is not a shadow government. Its not a conspiracy. Theres nothing secret about it. The artificial state is a digital-communications infrastructure used by political strategists and private corporations to organize and automate political discourse. It is the reduction of politics to the digital manipulation of attention-mining algorithms, the trussing of government by corporate-owned digital architecture, the diminishment of citizenship to minutely message-tested online engagement. An entire generation of Americans can no longer imagine any other system and, wisely, have very little faith in this one. (According to a Harvard poll from 2021, more than half of Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine believe that American democracy either is in trouble or has already failed.) Within the artificial state, nearly every element of American democratic lifecivil society, representative government, a free press, free expression, and faith in electionsis vulnerable to subversion. In lieu of decision-making by democratic deliberation, the artificial state offers prediction by calculation, the capture of the public sphere by data-driven commerce, and the replacement of humans with machinesdrones in the place of the demos..." "...The mainframe computer, the personal computer, the Internet, data science, machine learning, and large language models have made possible astounding advances in scientific research, communication, education, public health, and a thousand other realms of human endeavor. But their effects on political discourse, representative democracy, and constitutional government have been, on the whole, malign. Liberal democratic states make citizens; the artificial state makes trolls."
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #405 of 578: Inkwell Co-Host (jonl) Sat 9 Nov 24 10:55
permalink #405 of 578: Inkwell Co-Host (jonl) Sat 9 Nov 24 10:55
>>> Democrats Lost Because of Their Bad Policies, Not Their Bad Attitude ... let's don't automatically assume the problem was a bad collective attitude or an inability to relate to people who ultimately voted Republican. The alternative interpretation is that Democrats became identified with bad policies that voters thought were hurting them and the country. This is hardly a problem that is exclusive to Democrats: Republicans will eternally pursue lower taxes on the wealthy to the very ends of the earth despite all the evidence that they don't work, aren't fair, and also aren't popular. Indeed, Donald Trump shows every indication he wants to take his party back to a cult of protectionism that Republicans finally abandoned nearly 90 years ago, and if he does and that predictably backfires on him, his party will pay the price as well. During the two years (2021-2022) when Democrats held a governing trifecta and could pretty much do as they pleased they pursued policies that contributed to excessive inflation and to an explosion in cross-border migrations, and on November 5 they paid the price for that. On the inflation front, yes, I understand, supply-chain disruptions had a lot to do with suddenly rising prices, and yes, I get it, Democratic policymakers were trying to head off a possible recession. But by enacting two big packages of new federal spending (the first being focused on boosting consumer spending rapidly) on strict party-line votes, Democrats inevitably owned the high inflation rates that ensued which to this day are regarded bitterly by low-to-middle income people, including young people starting off careers and families. I'm not enough of an insider to know the extent to which people in the Biden administration or the Congress knowingly courted this economic and political danger. But I do know it happened after a period of liberal elite fascination with 'modern monetary theory,' which holds inflation fears associated with reckless fiscal policy as mostly misguided. And it also happened at a time when most of the people running the government never knew or no longer remembered the political consequences of high inflation in the 1970s (or more recently in other countries). They should have known better or been more careful, and Kamala Harris and countless other Democratic candidates in 2024 paid the price for that mistake.<<< <https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/democrats-lost-because-of-bad-policies -not-bad-attitudes.html>
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #406 of 578: Michael Newman (jstrawtoo) Sat 9 Nov 24 11:36
permalink #406 of 578: Michael Newman (jstrawtoo) Sat 9 Nov 24 11:36
>>...so they chose fascism and untold suffering for their fellow Americans and human being across the globe. Which will bring down the cost of eggs in three, two...
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #407 of 578: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Sat 9 Nov 24 12:45
permalink #407 of 578: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Sat 9 Nov 24 12:45
As soon as President Trump gets the government out of the business of killing chickens because of the bird flu hoax.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #408 of 578: magdalen (magdalen) Sat 9 Nov 24 15:31
permalink #408 of 578: magdalen (magdalen) Sat 9 Nov 24 15:31
just a heads-up that i'm going to follow Larry's actions and do a scribble on my posts here. sometimes i post in a Devil's advocate way. sometimes i post in a musing way, imagining what could happen, what i *might* think under some circumstance. usually these are attempts at trying to expand my worldview or comprehend what They, the Other, might be thinking or feeling as they cast a vote or say a word i disapprove of. i'll try to hold off posting in that style here. The Well has changed, and so should i.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #409 of 578: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sat 9 Nov 24 15:48
permalink #409 of 578: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sat 9 Nov 24 15:48
<scribbled by jonl Sat 9 Nov 24 16:05>
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #410 of 578: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sat 9 Nov 24 18:16
permalink #410 of 578: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Sat 9 Nov 24 18:16
Not that anyone cares by now .. but my world view of what happened is : Bad boy beats woke gal Bad boy played the media perfectly. Barrage of bullshit ... That got echoed by the media "bad boy said bad thing". Toxic male appealed specially to young men of all races, black, Hispanic -- all bad girls and some good girls Bad boy can fix it with the concept of a plan. Preyed on fear and doubt Woke woman recently ( 4 yrs, 4 months) making cautious entry into politics. Actual boring plans. No unrealistic promise. Played to the base of ten years ago. (ps In my little county Dems are ageing out, few young people joining)
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #411 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 18:44
permalink #411 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 18:44
I hate to say it, but if you havent seen Idiocracy, its time you did. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy>
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #412 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 19:00
permalink #412 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sat 9 Nov 24 19:00
Ive been thinking about my own misperceptions. I noticed while canvassing in Reno, that there were lots more young voters than Id seen in previous cycles. I thought this boded well for the VP, but I now realize the other side of the picture. I saw a huge number of households with one or more 20-30 year olds living with someone old enough to be their parent or grandparent. This was probably not where they had hoped to find themselves. I know a guy who lives here in Sonoma County. He works at Costco. He gets about $25 per hour. Its nowhere near enough to get his own place, so he lives with his mom. He voted for Trump. There should have been signs in the Harris-Walz offices that said - Its the Inequality, Stupid! Wages and the cost of living seem to be unrelated.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #413 of 578: @allartburns@mastodon.social @liberalgunsmith@defcon.social (jet) Sat 9 Nov 24 19:47
permalink #413 of 578: @allartburns@mastodon.social @liberalgunsmith@defcon.social (jet) Sat 9 Nov 24 19:47
My physical security pal Dev has a great 30 minute podcast on dealing with the election now and in the future: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_91CDTCkNE> Something many of you outside of #infosec don't see is how much time we (in #infosec) try to be one of Mr. Rogers' "helpers". Dev is a "helper leader", imho. Also how to make a rather crazy banana bread old fashioned at the end. WTF?
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #414 of 578: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Sun 10 Nov 24 07:51
permalink #414 of 578: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Sun 10 Nov 24 07:51
"It's the Inequality, Stupid!" Yes - I agree that is the fundamental divide/issue/challange in this country: The middle ands lower income groups having seen their share of the national income/wealth pie steadily decline in the SA for over 50 years. The Democratic Party has often participated in the policies that have caused this increase in inequality, and certainly have not been outspoken nor effective in reversing it. The frustration and anger from this is catalyized by racism, misogyny, and other bigotries. The authoritarian/feudalists don't need to propose real effective policies, and the democratic/collectivists (that's me and others) have not been effective in making the case for policies that will help.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #415 of 578: seanan (seanan) Sun 10 Nov 24 08:40
permalink #415 of 578: seanan (seanan) Sun 10 Nov 24 08:40
Backing up a few posts to second if you havent seen Idiocracy, its time you did. A librarian recommended it to me a few months ago. She wasnt wrong. And, yes, Its the Inequality, Stupid! should have been on every campaign offices walls, and possibly as their screensavers, as well.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #416 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 08:45
permalink #416 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 08:45
If Sanders had beat Clinton in 2016, we would live in a different world. When I was canvassing in a nice suburban tract in West Reno, I was met at an open door by a 40ish white man carrying a mop, and a 60ish Indian woman who was directing him in his work. As soon as I told her I was with the Democrats, she started ranting about her damn Democrat tenants who had trashed the place and disappeared. She said I lived in San Francisco 30 years ago, and I know from Kamala. She slept with Willie Brown, a Married Man! No morals!. I started to say something about TFG, and she immediately said I dont want to talk about Trump. I was with Bernie all the way! She was generally pissed at the whole Democratic Party. Bernie and the other Labor/Social Democrats are the only faction of the party that really speak to inequality regularly, and with a consistent pro worker message. The US needs a Labor Party. That message was ascendant in Obamas third year(remember Occupy), and that spoke directly to the concerns that the voters are upset about now. Remember The Rent Is Too Damn High guy? That missed opportunity is akin to if RFK Sr. had lived and won, or if Gore had prevailed in the court. There is no component of misogyny in my assessment. On the morning of the 2016 election, I was driving over to the Jr. High to vote, and I passed a mother walking with her young daughter. Made me so happy that we would finally have a Ms. President. I cried. Still do when I think about it.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #417 of 578: Axon (axon) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:08
permalink #417 of 578: Axon (axon) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:08
The Butthurt Left is a wholly owned subsidiary of the GOP Disinfotainment Division, which is solely responsible for its content.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #418 of 578: Larry Person (lperson) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:19
permalink #418 of 578: Larry Person (lperson) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:19
<scribbled by lperson Sun 10 Nov 24 09:19>
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #419 of 578: Larry Person (lperson) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:20
permalink #419 of 578: Larry Person (lperson) Sun 10 Nov 24 09:20
Yeah, best to 🤐 (zip it emoji)
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #420 of 578: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sun 10 Nov 24 12:03
permalink #420 of 578: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sun 10 Nov 24 12:03
<yesway> speaks for me.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #421 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sun 10 Nov 24 14:43
permalink #421 of 578: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Sun 10 Nov 24 14:43
Bill, do you think that platform would have succeeded if all other things were equal? Honest question.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #422 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 20:06
permalink #422 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 20:06
I think Bernie Sanders would have beat Trump in a general election.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #423 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 20:11
permalink #423 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 20:11
Maybe with Sibelius as VP.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #424 of 578: Axon (axon) Sun 10 Nov 24 21:18
permalink #424 of 578: Axon (axon) Sun 10 Nov 24 21:18
I'm starting to auger into a mild depression. I'm just so disappointed in homo sapiens. I see these primates going around in clothes and cars and using language and tools and I'm just not buying it. The media keeps going on about its business like this is all perfectly normal and it just bugs the hell out of me. At this point I have zero confidence in anything they report. I'm entertaining the suspicion that I'm trapped in The Truman Show. I don't believe a word of much of anything. My feeling towards humanity is somewhere between pity and contempt. Present company excepted, of course. You guys rock.
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Angie Coiro and Friends: Election 2024
permalink #425 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 22:04
permalink #425 of 578: William F. Stockton (yesway) Sun 10 Nov 24 22:04
When nothing is true, all is permitted. Scary, right?
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