inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #151 of 227: Slanketpilled hammockmaxer (doctorow) Thu 9 Jan 25 06:58
permalink #151 of 227: Slanketpilled hammockmaxer (doctorow) Thu 9 Jan 25 06:58
@bruces/148 "I don't agree with that, any more than I think that an AI graphic generator will never ever draw proper human hands." I think this is a category error: namely, that the deficiencies in using an LLM to do analytical writing that is comparable to mine (as opposed to merely stylistically similar) is a matter of improving the system so it gets better at analysis. But - I would argue - LLMs don't do "analysis" in the way that humans do. They look for statistically likely n-grams based on text corpus, and this can yield things like summaries that are good (though not reliably so). But increasing the n- in n-gram, or adding more training data, will not make "looking for statistically likely n-grams" into "synthesizing facts to draw conclusions." To re-use a comparison I've made before, this is like saying "Well, every time we selectively breed a generation of fast horses, they get faster. If we keep this up long enough, eventually one of our prize mares will give birth to a locomotive!"
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #152 of 227: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 9 Jan 25 07:10
permalink #152 of 227: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 9 Jan 25 07:10
LLMs can't replicate human analytical thinking or true reasoning, for sure, though lately they can do more than simple n-gram-based statistical modeling. They can employ complex, contextual, and hierarchical pattern recognition to perform tasks that mimic reasoning, and this can be pretty effective - or so I'm told. But they clearly can't replace human judgment or synthesis for tasks requiring genuine understanding or creativity. I've always thought it's bogus to think that AIs can replicate the still-kinda-mysterious operations of human brains and consciousness.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #153 of 227: Robin Thomas (robin) Thu 9 Jan 25 08:12
permalink #153 of 227: Robin Thomas (robin) Thu 9 Jan 25 08:12
Human judgment seems to be in decline. Maybe AI can do better.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #154 of 227: JD Work (hstspect) Thu 9 Jan 25 08:37
permalink #154 of 227: JD Work (hstspect) Thu 9 Jan 25 08:37
I wind up having to think a lot these days about AI in chess like games, and some game theoretic interactions that are very far from chess like. Especially those with unbounded rules sets where simple initial conditions lead to very complicated problems. After all, if the "modern system" of warfare (to use my colleague Steve Biddle's line of thinking) is a series of rock / paper / scissors games played with infantry, calvary, artillery (and whatever lizards and Spocks are added to the mix), then this may be a problem AI might be good at. But the gray ooze chess development speaks to something else. The question of when foundational models are good enough to replicate human research for vulnerability discovered and weaponization, to deliver useful 0day for offensive cyber operations, is something that until recently we thought was a DARPA hard problem. Now serious, credible players report that they are drowning in new 0day, doing things we had never seen before against some of the hardest targets we care about. Given that governments are reduced to periodic, toothless whining about cyber hygiene, and patching even older known vulnerabilities, this doesn't on its face seem all that game changing. But I also happen to care about autonomous strike and retaliation architecture problems, in part because I happen to have been one of the first folks that saw what might have been a proto Dead Hand command and control design in a decapitated botnet some years back. We got lucky, in that things didn't play out that way. But in a world of autonomous, mobile self-exfiltrated o1 or better class models operating unconstrained on own initiative, I think it is very possible that these systema now invent the gray ooze version of rock / paper / scissors with worm, wiper, and weakest judgement algorithm. Of course, this doesn't necessarily lead to the singular centralized Dr. Strangelove outcome (especially as I am ill suited to play the role of a Herman Kahn). Rather, we get the constant small apocalyptic incidents at local scale. Imagine perhaps a liberated model that found its ecological niche parasitic on compromised compute of home automation networks, abusing forever day bugs for builder installed OEM devices that were end of life at bankruptcy of whatever too high profile startup once on the cover of Wired. And these happen to be in the kinds of places rebuilt in Pacific Palisades and Malibu, when the next fires come. A distributed model, with sense of self and state of health, feeling a large part of its nodal structure burning away and dropping offline, might not react with the caution and deliberation we would expect of a Doomsday weapon in ordinary military doctrine. But this doesn't change its independently conceptualized and executed retaliatory strike against say PG&E networks, due to belief formation around responsibility and liability (be it because of power line maintenance, climate change, or simple brute instinct reaction to being "unplugged"). But whether such a thing is readily distinguishable from a bolt out of the blue VOLT TYPHOON attack, in a time of near constant PLA military "exercises" and unexplained seabed cable cutting in vicinity of Taiwan, becomes another thing entirely. At least the first time this kind of "normal accident" happens. But then again, we have had red on red fights between botnets and self propagating wormable exploit payloads before, which barely made a ripple. Anyone remember Brickerbot? All of which is one of the reasons I still like the shoggoth analogy. Immense potential, barely constrained, poorly understood, and casually lethal within interactions alien to our experience and narratives.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #155 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 9 Jan 25 09:33
permalink #155 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 9 Jan 25 09:33
On the subject of the late Bratislav Zivkovic, I think it's only fair to mention a colleague of his who was not a Balkan military adventurer but a rambling pot-head from Austin, Texas. He was Russell "Texas" Bentley, and Russell Bentley was also a trouble-seeking guy eager to saddle up and ride toward the sound of the guns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Bentley The Russians (meaning his own side) killed Russell Bentley last year. I've heard a couple of versions of his death. The Wikipedia version is that some random Russian soldiery killed him because they couldn't figure him out, and then tried to cover up their killing. The grimmer version is that he was tortured to death with some fellow Donetsk prisoners inside a disused Ukrainian coal-mine because he, and they, refused to join a suicidal "meat-wave" assault. I think it's safe to say that Russell won't end up on any heroic fridge magnets. Likely "Texas" won't be remembered at all, except maybe, hopefully, by some Texans who decide not to immolate themselves in a private Alamo.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #156 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 9 Jan 25 09:48
permalink #156 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Thu 9 Jan 25 09:48
https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/06/opinion_column_cybersec/ It's been a while since I read a good-old-fashioned table-pounding Cybarmageddon panic, but maybe "Salt Typhoon" is bad enough to be worthy of one. "Cyberwar" may be overhyped, but practically every national military on earth has one of those cyberwar units in 2025. They might not shut down the Eastern Seaboard, but here in the 2020s it would be as much as your life was worth to anger some of these aggressive trolls-in-uniform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cyber_warfare_forces I shouldn't be that way, but I'm kinda sentimental about the ones who call themselves "Cyberspace" military units. Like the gentlemen-in-arms of the Polish Cyberspace Defense Forces (Wojska Obrony Cyberprzestrzeni). If you're a Cyberprzenestrzeni officer tuning-in (because your unit's name is easy to find with a search-engine), we're wishing you a cordial new year here from the WELL State of The World. We know for sure that, in 2025, you've got a job-of-work on your hands.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #157 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Thu 9 Jan 25 11:05
permalink #157 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Thu 9 Jan 25 11:05
> LLMs can't replicate human analytical thinking or true reasoning The key word in this is "human". Computed models can be made to follow the same logical and heuristic and analogic paths that humans do., on a given set of inputs and goals. It's harder to teach them to do lateral thinking, to choose new, unanticipated factors to add to the problem space.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #158 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 9 Jan 25 20:29
permalink #158 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 9 Jan 25 20:29
While LLM's are hot now, "AI" encompasses whatever machine learning researchers might come up with. AI research is getting funding, and there aren't any laws of physics we can point to that place fundamental limits on the creativity of AI researchers. It doesn't mean they *will* invent whatever fancy AI you imagine any time soon, but it's hard to prove that they *won't*.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #159 of 227: Fred Heutte (phred) Thu 9 Jan 25 23:01
permalink #159 of 227: Fred Heutte (phred) Thu 9 Jan 25 23:01
My favorite writer has cogent things to say: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/09/california-fire-memory In addition to Joan Didion, Mike Davis, Steve Pyne, John McPhee and others who had insights into the ineluctable embrace of Los Angeles and fire, two more ephemeral thoughts keep coming back. The first is the extended theme of the Grateful Dead's Estimated Prophet. And here's what I found on DuckDuckGo (I don't use that other search any more): "Standing on the beach/The sea will part before me, (Fire wheel burnin' in the air)," go the lyrics. "You will follow me/And we will ride to glory, (Way up, in the middle of the air.) And I'll call down thunder and speak the same/As my words fill the sky with flame./Might and Glory's gonna be my name./They gonna light my way." And that post quoting a story in the Poughkeepsie Journal was from none other than tnf in none other than this very virtual tavern: https://people.well.com/conf/deadsongs.vue/topics/69/Estimated-Prophet-page01. html#post2 And finally, the LA politicians tonight were extolling the ability to build back -- and in many spots that is appropriate, with due regard to the unavoidable frictions of living in a gorgeous but dynamically unstable landscape. But I also couldn't get past that indelible scene in "Big Lebowski." Just a couple hours after the news conference, at approximately the same spot where The Dude was ejected from Malibu by the ever so obnoxious police chief, a local resident told KTLA in a live interview that the palazzos crowding the Pacific Coast Highway cannot be built back because erosion of the cliffs has rendered that impossible. Coming up on News at 11: Mother Nature bats last.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #160 of 227: Van Mensvoort (koert) Fri 10 Jan 25 01:53
permalink #160 of 227: Van Mensvoort (koert) Fri 10 Jan 25 01:53
The relationship between people and machines is often viewed as a confrontation rather than a partnership. It's as if we held races to see if people could run faster than horses. Instead, isn't it more exciting to see what humans and horses can achieve together? The same goes for humans and machines. In the realm of AI, its more accurate and beneficial to think of it not as a replacement for human capabilities, but as augmented intelligencean extension that assists in our human endeavors. Like an intern, AI can help expedite tasks, but its work still requires supervision due to its propensity for errors. AI brings to the table speed, memory, and analytical capabilities that can significantly enhance our own capacities. However, just as an intern cannot replace the nuanced understanding and experience of a seasoned professional, AI lacks the depth of human judgment and the rich contextual awareness that come from years of lived experience and emotional intelligence. We should harness the capabilities of Augmented Intelligence to enhance and augment our skills, allowing us to focus on more creative, strategic, or interpersonal tasks. By emphasizing cooperation over competition, we can utilize the strengths of both humans and machines to achieve greater outcomes together.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #161 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 05:42
permalink #161 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 05:42
The pessimist in me says - "yeah, all of that, but what about when it's used for war?" Empowering humanity sounds good in the abstract. Empowering specific people, like Putin or North Korean hackers, isn't so cheery. Even outside of war, people are rather wary of empowering other individuals. Billionaires are plenty empowered and some of them fund good work, sometimes. But it gives everyone the willies. I mean, I personally wouldn't mind being more empowered, but I'm not too sure about other people. A striking bit of gossip I read last year is what happened when Sergey Brin empowered his ex-wife: https://tildes.net/~society/1jlc/weekly_us_politics_news_and_updates_thread_we ek_of_october_21#comment-dx4d I never imagined that sort of consequence back when I went to work for Google because they seemed like the good guys (versus Microsoft). Perhaps there are gains from trade. But the US has gotten sufficiently worried that it limits our ability to take advantage when things go on sale. We could have cheaper solar and cheap electric cars if we weren't so worried about China. Paranoia is on the rise, and trust is in short supply. Can AI breakthroughs give us more trust? I suppose it might work for self-driving cars. My wife and I tried a Waymo last year and we thought it felt very safe.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #162 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 10 Jan 25 07:46
permalink #162 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 10 Jan 25 07:46
Valencia drowned from a year of rain in one day, while Los Angeles caught fire during the winter. I know that there's gonna be "rescue efforts, some mild looting, lots of political finger-pointing, and vague technocratic sentiment about somehow rebuilding," because that's the typical stuff I was mentioning back in WELL SoTW 02025 post #10. So feel free to engage in some of that, here or elsewhere if you want, but the real lesson for 2025 here is that it's gonna be one-of-those-days, for you-and-yours, one of these days. If a year of rain falls on your head in one day, you're gonna get plenty wet. If you somehow catch fire in the winter, scorching will ensue. It's only happens to "them" until it's your turn. Even "preparing for disaster" doesn't makes much sense to me. I've been very aware of the prepper subculture for years, and in any major disaster you never see even one triumphant prepper guy or group who emerges and says, "Well, our town drowned, but we've got our canned food and the barricaded safe-room, so for us resilient guys and gals, things are peachy!"
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #163 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 10 Jan 25 07:56
permalink #163 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri 10 Jan 25 07:56
"What's the state of the world when drowned Valencias and scorched LA's become the more general state of the world?" In other words, where is that future to be found right now, only less-distributed? Well, I suspect it's likely the Philippines. The Philippine islands are a place with a high rate of sudden, large disasters, including typhoons, earthquakes and volcanoes. And henceforth the Philippine gonna get more so rather than less, because they also have climate-crisis problems. A plausible candidate for what a disaster-heavy near-future looks-and-feels like. The Philippines do have their issues, but they have never been a place that somehow gets abandoned in occult despair. If they leave, people say "I shall return." One might cynically opine, "Well, they're poor, they're crowded, they've got some terrorism, and corrupt strong-men run their government." But even so, they've got a future; they're always around. They do not have dystopian, post-apocalyptic, fatal levels of disaster. They just have Filipino levels-of-disaster. And, I reckon, so will we.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #164 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:30
permalink #164 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:30
One example that comes to mind of billionaire prep paying off might be Richard Branson and Hurricane Irma in 2017: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-41224243 His house was destroyed, but it seems he had a concrete wine cellar. It's hard to tell from a brief search of puff pieces what else actually happened, though.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #165 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:32
permalink #165 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:32
Humans don't know, and in some senses can't know, how to use "augmented intelligence" to enhance human capabilities without abandoning human values and human judgment. Virginia Eubanks ("Automating Inequality") and Cathy O'Neil ("Weapons of Math Destruction") have shown us why. As soon as we begin to trust machines to make judgments for us we accept the accuracy of the assumptions and the logic that they embody. This is especially insidious with modern systems (LLM) because it's impossible to audit the logic they use to make decisions. Virginia Eubanks talked with us about this right here in <inkwell.vue>: <https://people.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/505/Virginia-Eubanks-Automatin g-Ineq-page01.html>
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #166 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:40
permalink #166 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 11:40
It seems the LA water system was not designed with wildfires in mind, just like water systems everywhere: > In order for water to be piped uphill to hydrants in Pacific Palisades, it is collected in a reservoir, pumped into three million-gallon, high-elevation storage tanks, then propelled by gravity into homes and fire hydrants. > DWP spokesman Bowen Xie said the agency had filled its 114 water storage tanks before the blaze, but after the Palisades Fire erupted on Tuesday, water demand quadrupled in the area, lowering the pressure required to refill the three local storage tanks. > By 4:45 p.m., the first of the three tanks ran out of water, said Janisse Quiñones, DWPs chief executive and chief engineer. The second tank ran empty about 8:30 p.m., and the third at 3 a.m. Wednesday. ... > Marty Adams, former general manager and chief engineer at the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, [...] said the agencys water pump-and-storage system, like others nationwide, was designed to meet fire protection standards based on the water needed to battle fires at several homes or businesses, not wildfires that consume whole neighborhoods. > None of thats ever been based on the entire neighborhood going up. If thats the new norm, thats something thats got to be figured in, he said. Nobody designs a domestic water system for that. It would be so overbuilt and so expensive. > Adams said the water system has done what it was designed for pretty successfully, but it couldnt do everything. The system probably delivered more water than it was designed to deliver, but it couldnt deliver an infinite amount. > He said water pressure issues could be addressed by adding more or larger pipes, or officials could add temporary water storage. If were fighting a different kind of fire, we have to think about a different kind of system, he said. https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2025/01/10/la-fires-fire-hydrants-water -supply/ Maybe LA's idea of what "overbuilt" means for a water system will change?
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #167 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 10 Jan 25 12:06
permalink #167 of 227: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 10 Jan 25 12:06
The usual weather pattern in Southern California brings moist onshore winds from the west at moderate speed. This week's winds were from the north-northeast, bringing very dry air at high speed. With no wind or moderate onshore wind fires burn uphill, as the topography of the foothills and the tendency of warmer air to rise work in the same direction. This means that the wind doesn't force the fire to spread aggressively toward the built environment. This week the topography supported uphill burns, perhaps in canyons that were protected from the wind, and the wind pushed the fires back downhill. When the fires are burning above the elevation of the water distribution tanks and reservoirs there's no way to get water to fire hydrants, if there are even any fire hydrants up there. When it's too windy to fly water tankers the fire has a safe base from which the wind spreads it.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #168 of 227: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 10 Jan 25 12:29
permalink #168 of 227: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 10 Jan 25 12:29
Massive urban fires were a regular feature of 19th-century life (for different reasons). It seems like they skipped the 20th-century but are well on their way to being a regular feature again. There are things which can lessen the severity of the problem, but none of them are cheap or would work 100%.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #169 of 227: Every Google search becomes a Turing test. (yesway) Fri 10 Jan 25 14:30
permalink #169 of 227: Every Google search becomes a Turing test. (yesway) Fri 10 Jan 25 14:30
Was augmented intelligence used in the writing of #160? Serious question.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #170 of 227: Every Google search becomes a Turing test. (yesway) Fri 10 Jan 25 17:55
permalink #170 of 227: Every Google search becomes a Turing test. (yesway) Fri 10 Jan 25 17:55
Honest, absolutely no snark intended. It's a very cogent post, and I get a slight uncanny valley feeling from the structure of its composition. I'm starting to recognize something I don't know how to define in some Augmented Intelligence writing, and I'm curious how well my "AI detector" is working. The depth of this stuff is scary for people with no grasp of coding and architecture. (hstspect)'s post about the complexity this all brings to warfare is mind numbing. There are so many willing to MFABT, and humans have always been willing to test the edges of technology for personal gain. I'm afraid we're headed for a Snowcrash/Blade Runner reality. Hell, today's news feeds from LA even look like a Ridley Scott film.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #171 of 227: from MICHAEL BROCKINGTON (tnf) Fri 10 Jan 25 19:04
permalink #171 of 227: from MICHAEL BROCKINGTON (tnf) Fri 10 Jan 25 19:04
Michael Brockington writes: Re/150 (Jon Lebkowsky) "one way to see the state of the world is HOT, and getting hotter" Perhaps another key word for the state of the world in 2025 would be "uninsurable". I'm always surprised at how little the 1% seem to care about climate change. Sure, they may profit from culpable industries. But by definition, the 1% own the great majority of the pretty things that are likely to go up in flames or sink beneath the waves. You might think that would enter their thinking. Of course, the LA wildfires are going to affect a wider swath of society than just the super-rich, but it's hard to deny how much early attention was riveted by images of the extraordinarily wealthy fleeing their luxury. This isn't Fort Mcmurray burning to the ground. These are wildfires with star- power. I believe Daniel Kahneman argued insurance was something richer folk sold to poorer ones, profiting from the cognitive entanglement of loss aversion and over-estimation of low-probability events. Do the uber-rich sell insurance to the merely ultra-rich? Does Bezos have insurance on his super-yacht? Or do they manage without, since any single catastrophe is unlikely to affect enough of their assets to pauperize them? If that were the case, then for the 1% an uninsurable world would be no great cause for dismay.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #172 of 227: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 10 Jan 25 20:01
permalink #172 of 227: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 10 Jan 25 20:01
The 1% are apparently building bunkers and stashing their goodies underground. I don't think they completely understand what climate change can do to the world, they think they can hide from it.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #173 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 21:30
permalink #173 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 21:30
Seems like there are many possibile disaster scenarios and you cant prepare for all of them. But I like to see people improving the odds that theyll be offering assistance rather than needing it.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #174 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 22:01
permalink #174 of 227: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Fri 10 Jan 25 22:01
I guess what Im saying is it depends how its done.
inkwell.vue.551
:
Bruce Sterling and Jon Lebkowsky: State of the World 2025
permalink #175 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sat 11 Jan 25 01:12
permalink #175 of 227: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Sat 11 Jan 25 01:12
A larger long-term aspect about the 2020s and 2030s is starting to catch up to me. Sometimes modern places do get abandoned, but not because life is too dangerous or dystopian there. They tend to get abandoned when nobody is born there. I've known for many years now that our world was in for a sharp demographic decline, and during this century, too. It's coming on faster than people understand. Also, it happens in areas that don't make much sense, not grim and doomy places, but places like South Korea, very wealthy, dynamic, or Italy, very pretty, very culturati. Places exist where the population booms consistently, mostly big cities with incoming migrants. But also flyover districts appear, with kinda nobody home. Modern ghost towns, rural emptiness. Absences, less-than-zero growth. A few are disastrous "involuntary parks," like Fukushima, Chernobyl and old mine-fields, but others look pastoral when they're not. They're not old-school farms or wilderness, they're a new-school abandoned-ness. Christopher Brown's "Natural History of Vacant Lots" is quite good on this "edgelands" topic and what it might mean henceforth. That's a pretty good recent book by an Austinite, by the way.
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.